{"code":"27467","sect":"El Salvador","sect_slug":"el-salvador","hits":"2160","link":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/en\/202406\/el_salvador\/27467","link_edit":"","name":"The Ranfla Nacional in 2012: \u201cThe Mara Salvatrucha will not be disbanded\u201d","slug":"the-ranfla-nacional-in-2012-ldquo-the-mara-salvatrucha-will-not-be-disbanded-rdquo-","info":"During the 2012 gang ceasefire in El Salvador and their negotiations with the Funes administration, MS-13 figureheads granted this rare interview flexing their political muscle. Twelve years later, their answers now ring differently in light of the Bukele administration\u2019s dismantling of their presence in the streets and their pending trials in the United States.","mtag":"Gangs","noun":{"html":"Jos\u00e9 Luis Sanz and Carlos Mart\u00ednez","data":{"jose-luis-sanz-and-carlos-martinez":{"sort":"","slug":"jose-luis-sanz-and-carlos-martinez","path":"jose_luis_sanz_and_carlos_martinez","name":"Jos\u00e9 Luis Sanz and Carlos Mart\u00ednez"}}},"view":"2160","pict":{"cms-image-000040675-jpg":{"feat":"1","sort":"40675","name":"cms-image-000040675.jpg","link":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040675.jpg","path":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040675.jpg","back":"","slug":"cms-image-000040675-jpg","text":"<p>Most of the Ranfla Nacional of MS-13, the gang's senior leadership, poses for this photo during an interview in 2012 by El Faro. Photo Pau Coll<\/p>","capt":"\u003Cp\u003EMost of the Ranfla Nacional of MS-13, the gang's senior leadership, poses for this photo during an interview in 2012 by El Faro. Photo Pau Coll\u003C\/p\u003E"},"cms-image-000040676-jpg":{"feat":"0","sort":"40676","name":"cms-image-000040676.jpg","link":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040676.jpg","path":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040676.jpg","back":"","slug":"cms-image-000040676-jpg","text":"<p>From left to right: Sirra (Dionisio Ar\u00edstides Umanzor), El Trece (Sa\u00fal Turcios), Diablo (Borromeo Henr\u00edquez), and El Flaco (Hugo Quinteros) during an interview given to El Faro in 2012 by spokespersons for the Mara Salvatrucha. Photo Pau Coll<\/p>","capt":"\u003Cp\u003EFrom left to right: Sirra (Dionisio Ar\u00edstides Umanzor), El Trece (Sa\u00fal Turcios), Diablo (Borromeo Henr\u00edquez), and El Flaco (Hugo Quinteros) during an interview given to El Faro in 2012 by spokespersons for the Mara Salvatrucha. Photo Pau Coll\u003C\/p\u003E"},"cms-image-000040677-jpg":{"feat":"0","sort":"40677","name":"cms-image-000040677.jpg","link":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040677.jpg","path":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040677.jpg","back":"","slug":"cms-image-000040677-jpg","text":"<p>In 2012, more than 2,000 incarcerated people were packed into a prison designed for 800 people in Ciudad Barrios. According to the OAS, El Salvador was already the country with the most overcrowded prisons on the American continent. Photo Pau Coll<\/p>","capt":"\u003Cp\u003EIn 2012, more than 2,000 incarcerated people were packed into a prison designed for 800 people in Ciudad Barrios. According to the OAS, El Salvador was already the country with the most overcrowded prisons on the American continent. Photo Pau Coll\u003C\/p\u003E"},"cms-image-000040678-jpg":{"feat":"0","sort":"40678","name":"cms-image-000040678.jpg","link":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040678.jpg","path":"https:\/\/elfaro.net\/images\/cms-image-000040678.jpg","back":"","slug":"cms-image-000040678-jpg","text":"<p>The Ranfla Nacional of the Mara Salvatrucha during one of the interviews they granted to El Faro in 2012. At the back of the group, Chino listens into the conversation before interrupting. Photo Pau Coll<\/p>","capt":"\u003Cp\u003EThe Ranfla Nacional of the Mara Salvatrucha during one of the interviews they granted to El Faro in 2012. At the back of the group, Chino listens into the conversation before interrupting. Photo Pau Coll\u003C\/p\u003E"}},"pict_main__sort":40675,"date":{"live":"2024\/06\/20"},"data_post_dateLive_YY":"2024","data_post_dateLive_MM":"06","data_post_dateLive_DD":"20","text":"\u003Cp\u003E\u003Cem\u003E\u003Cspan style=\"color: #888888;\"\u003EEl Faro first published this interview\u003C\/span\u003E \u003Ca href=\"https:\/\/salanegra.elfaro.net\/es\/201210\/entrevistas\/9844\/%E2%80%9C%C2%BFVos-deshar%C3%ADas-tu-familia-La-Mara-Salvatrucha-no-se-va-a-deshacer%E2%80%9D.htm\"\u003Ein Spanish\u003C\/a\u003E \u003Cspan style=\"color: #888888;\"\u003Eon Oct. 8, 2012 and translated it prior to the watershed trials in the U.S. of 27 senior leaders of MS-13.\u003C\/span\u003E\u003C\/em\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThey are called the \u003Cem\u003ERanfla\u003C\/em\u003E, or \u003Cem\u003Erueda\u003C\/em\u003E (circle). They are the highest echelon of the Mara Salvatrucha in El Salvador. El Faro has been trying to speak to the group since March 8, 2012, when most of their members were transferred from the maximum-security Zacatecoluca Prison in Ciudad Barrios. After the transfer they sent a message to the streets to stop all murders. The Ranfla insist they are spokespersons and not bosses, and that no decision can be made without everyone else weighing in; \u201cno-one risks anything, everyone risks everything\u201d is their slogan. But in the gang\u2019s pseudo-horizontal structure, their opinions and deliberations carry the weight of authority. At their age, with their experience, intelligence, and resolve, each of them has earnt the trust and respect of the rest. When they are together they carry the word of the Mara Salvatrucha-13.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EIn the past they have not made public declarations, and are even less likely to speak to journalists than to their enemies in 18th Street. But over recent months it has become unexpectedly routine for MS-13 to give interviews to discuss the unforeseen truce with 18th Street. They have put out statements, held press conferences, and appeared on television. But before speaking to El Faro they demanded an apology for our coverage of the truce, which \u003Ca href=\"http:\/\/www.elfaro.net\/es\/201203\/noticias\/8061\"\u003Erevealed both gangs to be in negotiations with the administration\u003C\/a\u003E of President Mauricio Funes and posed the possibility that some leaders received payment as part of that agreement.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EOn September 4, as a storm battered the roof at the Ciudad Barrios prison, around 20 of these men drew a close-knit circle around us. They were ready to hear our journalistic explanation for the coverage. Our articles did not firmly state that any money was involved in the truce, but cited sources who implied it. They questioned us on our working methods until Borromeo Henr\u00edquez, known as Diablo, looked up from where he sat on the floor and asked the others: \u201cAre you satisfied? Do you have any more questions? I feel satisfied.\u201d There was an affirmative silence, and only afterwards did the leader allow us to turn on our Dictaphones.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EThe following dialogue is the result of two long interviews \u2014almost four hours of conversation in total\u2014 which took place at the prison on September 4 and 27, 2012. Here they have been merged, to allow for coherent reading of the ideas expressed by the MS-13 representatives, and have subsequently been split into four thematic areas. All of the accompanying photographs were taken at the second meeting in Ciudad Barrios. Not all participants were the same between the two meetings, although most of those who spoke at some point during the interviews participated in both.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EThe Ranfla is a heterogeneous group of around 20 people in which gang members known for their criminal trajectory and media presence, such as Dionisio Ar\u00edstides Umanzor, known as Sirra, sit alongside others such as Alfredo Ram\u00edrez Beltr\u00e1n, Locker; or Joaqu\u00edn Jes\u00fas Cruz L\u00f3pez, known as Chele, who have avoided making headlines for years. In the group, 30-year-olds sit alongside old-school \u003Cem\u003Ehomies\u003C\/em\u003E aged around 50, such as Jos\u00e9 Luis Mendoza, known as El Pava, one of the early members of \u003Ca href=\"\/en\/202308\/centroamerica\/26933\/how-los-angeles-taught-the-mara-salvatrucha-to-hate\"\u003ESeven Eleven, Los Angeles\u2019 first MS-13 clique\u003C\/a\u003E. The temperament of Sa\u00fal Turcios, known as El Trece, impatient and distrusting for most of the interview, contrasts the level-voiced and almost magisterial expression of Tiberio Ram\u00edrez Valladares, Snyder, a man whose full-face tattoos disguise a cordial manner.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EBorromeo Henr\u00edquez, Diablo or Diablito de Hollywood, stands out from the rest for his extraordinary way with words, setting the rhythm for the conversation like the conductor of an orchestra. Often cited by the authorities as the \u201cCentral American leader\u201d of the Mara Salvatrucha, he is not the group\u2019s only one. However it is clear that the others have chosen him to speak for them. Where the name of the speaker is unspecified in this text, it can be read as Diablo speaking in the name of the Ranfla, and on behalf of the Mara themselves.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EThis conversation took place more than 200 days after the beginning of a truce that has reduced homicide rates in El Salvador to unprecedented lows; if the numbers had continued at an average of 14 people a day, as was the case prior to the agreement, by this date 1700 more people would have been killed.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EShortly before the second session of this interview in Ciudad Barrios, El Faro published an article detailing a \u003Ca href=\"http:\/\/www.salanegra.elfaro.net\/es\/201209\/cronicas\/9612\/\"\u003Enew account of how the truce was managed\u003C\/a\u003E, as described by its protagonists Ra\u00fal Mijango, the primary mediator of the talks; Monsignor Fabio Colindres; and the Minister for Justice and Public Security, David Mungu\u00eda Pay\u00e9s. Denying their own prior description of events, they stated that the dialogue was not initiated by the Catholic Church and subsequently supported by the government, but a plan was instead developed by Minister Mungu\u00eda Pay\u00e9s, who later invited Colindres in order to gain legitimacy. It was a plan that President Funes knew about from the beginning.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EBut Funes \u003Ca href=\"http:\/\/www.elfaro.net\/es\/201209\/noticias\/9671\/\"\u003Econtinues to insist that his government\u2019s role has been limited\u003C\/a\u003E to facilitating the work of the Church. He has not responded to complaints from the gangs, mediators, nor the Organization of American States \u2014who participated in the process as a witness\u2014 for the Executive to play a more active role. Mijango has gone as far as to \u003Ca href=\"http:\/\/www.salanegra.elfaro.net\/es\/201206\/entrevistas\/8921\/\"\u003Estate that the truce will only last if the president decides\u003C\/a\u003E to make the negotiations official. If that happens, the gangs have already presented a series of requests to be discussed.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EIn this interview the Mara Salvatrucha react to Funes\u2019 silence toward their proposals and reveal details of conversations that both they and 18th Street had some years ago with the Antonio Saca administration. The leadership also discuss their long-term visions, revealing which scenarios they still have no answer for: they accept the possibility of disarmament, and of revealing the location of clandestine cemeteries, but appear visibly uncomfortable at the idea of disbanding. The Mara are not willing to even discuss the idea that they may one day disappear.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EOn the topic of the next stages of the process, the Mara assert that for as long as there continue to be gang members without legal employment, they will not dismantle their extortion network. They also state that they have recently held meetings with their street leaders to devise something new: a census of their members to gauge the labor potential of each member and clique. As they wait for the government and business to extend a firmer hand, they try to show patience and realism; they say they are aware that the most complex future task will be to gain acceptance from their victims.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIn July [2012] both gangs delivered a document to OAS Secretary General Jos\u00e9 Miguel Insulza titled \u201cTerms of the Agreement\u201d, which included requests such as the suspension of police operations, repealing the Gang Proscription Law, eliminating the use of plea bargains, and removing the military from the streets. The requests were accompanied by demands such as the elimination of torture and death squads, which amount to compliance with the law. Have you received a response from the Executive?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ENo, not at the moment. In return they gave us an equally extensive list, which included some sensitive subjects. The media got people excited, and with our request for an end to police operations they were like \u201cShit! How are the police, the government, and the President going to do that?\u201d That and the point about removing the military from the streets are the most delicate. The mega-operations they\u2019ve been doing since the Francisco Flores administration haven\u2019t achieved shit; all they\u2019ve done is fill up the prisons and put more innocent people in jail. Maybe they were aiming for war, to deprive fish of water, because a lot of those mega-operations targeted our families, maybe three, four, five members\u2026 and 70 civilians. People who might occasionally talk to me, or we play soccer together, or maybe we drink together sometimes, or they\u2019re my relative. There are some people who may really have been involved in illegal activities. But we\u2019re requesting that because just like people got scared when they saw the list we\u2019d presented, we were also scared by the list given to us, which included lots of difficult things. We saw it and said: \u201cWell, if they\u2019re saying that then they should be ready to discuss these other points, too.\u201d\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWho presented their list first, the government or you?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe did it at the same time.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ECrook: We\u2019re making these requests because we\u2019ve taken so much abuse on the streets and in the prisons, from both soldiers and prison guards. We could do an extensive list of requests but what we\u2019ve done is ask for our rights. Bringing the military off the streets would stop them roaming our neighborhoods carrying out phony searches, groping our women, underage youth, our daughters\u2026 in other words, abusing their legal powers. At the moment we don\u2019t have rights, just because we\u2019re in gangs. We have family members and friends who have died at the hands of the Army, whether that\u2019s by being shot or beaten. It\u2019s nothing new. And the torture\u2026 in this country we\u2019re experiencing things that happened during the war here, all over again. That\u2019s why we put it on the list.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E(\u003Ca href=\"\/en\/202401\/el_salvador\/27225\/Salvadoran-Government-Conspired-with-Gang-Leader-to-Recapture-%E2%80%98Crook%E2%80%99-with-Help-from-Jalisco-Cartel.htm\"\u003E\u00c9lmer Canales Rivera, alias Crook\u003C\/a\u003E, is short and stocky, with a shaved head and squinted gaze over his bushy moustache. He is one of thirty gang leaders transferred from Zacatecoluca at the beginning of March 2012 to begin the truce. So far, he has not tried to speak, nor had reason to. He has interrupted Diablo, as others do, because in this circle his voice carries weight. Over the duration of the interview it becomes clear that the leaders have a collective voice, emerging as a sum of opinions and sensibilities when the most sensitive topics arise. At times the dynamic lacks horizontality. When someone wants to, they emphasize a point; if a gang member wants to explain something Diablo has said, they do. When it is apparent that they are not in agreement over something that has been said, Diablo even corrects himself.)\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E \u003Cfigure class=\"pict pict_land pict_move_posc 0 cs_img cs_img--curr rule--ss_c\" data-shot=\"pict\" data-hint=\"pict\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"pict__pobj text-overflow\"\u003E\u003Cimg src=https:\/\/elfaro.net\/get_img?ImageWidth=4000&ImageHeight=2669&ImageId=40676 class=\"pobj\" style=\"max-width: 100%\" rel=\"resizable\" alt=\"From left to right: Sirra (Dionisio Ar\u00edstides Umanzor), El Trece (Sa\u00fal Turcios), Diablo (Borromeo Henr\u00edquez), and El Flaco (Hugo Quinteros) during an interview given to El Faro in 2012 by spokespersons for the Mara Salvatrucha. Photo Pau Coll\" \/\u003E\u003C\/div\u003E \u003Cfigcaption class=\"pict__text cs_img_caption folk_content typo_buttons line--ss_s0c line--ss_s0c--auto block full-width text-overflow rule--ss_l relative\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"__content block-inline full-width align-top tint-text--idle relative\"\u003E From left to right: Sirra (Dionisio Ar\u00edstides Umanzor), El Trece (Sa\u00fal Turcios), Diablo (Borromeo Henr\u00edquez), and El Flaco (Hugo Quinteros) during an interview given to El Faro in 2012 by spokespersons for the Mara Salvatrucha. Photo Pau Coll \u003Cdiv class=\"photographer text_italic rule--ss_l tint-text--idle\"\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/figcaption\u003E \u003C\/figure\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EBut it\u2019s important to know exactly how the lists were exchanged, because our impression is that the gangs are the only ones sending messages, and that it\u2019s been the successive statements made by the gangs that have established the rhythm for this process. From the outside it seems as if the gang has suggested formal negotiations, and given the list of conditions, with no prior dialogue. It\u2019s important to know if it\u2019s something that comes from you or if it\u2019s part of a dialogue that was already happening.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s an established dialogue, but among us. Our experiences require us to talk to each other and see what we can give, and what we can receive. When we draw up a list of\u2026 maybe they\u2019re not demands, but rather a list where we want to\u2026 That\u2019s why it was important for Insulza to participate. In the past, we\u2019ve talked to government officials, or aspiring presidents or their assistants, or with any of those sons of bitches who work closely with them, and they come and talk to us about the topics we\u2019ve wanted to raise. After those experiences we thought it was unlikely that the government or a minister would have the balls or authority to sit down and listen to our list. For a long time we\u2019ve had to fight for rights we have by law; we didn\u2019t make them up. We decided we needed to find a person with some weight to guarantee that our requests be listened to. That\u2019s how, through our network of contacts, we managed to get Insulza to listen to what we had to say. So with that in mind, our strategic decision was to call on him, a person with international influence who isn\u2019t compromised in any way here in El Salvador.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYou say that the list that the government presented contained a series of sensitive subjects. We understand that among these were things ranging from the complete disarmament of gangs to the location of clandestine cemeteries, to handing over homies who are facing charges. Who presented their demands first, you or the government?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019ve been asking for these things for years, so I think they already had an idea of where we were coming from. Those things came up when the dialogue began. We delivered a proposal to Insulza, and he replies\u2026 not in an official way, like through a member of the government. No official has told us \u201cthis is from the government of El Salvador.\u201d There\u2019s communication through Monsignor Colindres and Ra\u00fal [Mijango] and they let us know this and that. And we could see it\u2019s for real, and as we already had the things we\u2019re fighting for in mind, we made the proposal to Insulza. When he told us he was willing to come hear what we have to say, then we prepared the list and were like \u201cthis is it, here it is\u201d. We hoped that the government would take the time to read it, to listen to us and to talk.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHow did you go about agreeing on this list with 18th Street?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EOur problems are the same.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ECrook: Since we were in Zacate\u2026 Monsignor and Ra\u00fal thought that the differences between our two groups\u2019 proposals were minimal. We\u2019ve always had our problems with them, and there\u2019s blood in it, but we\u2019re both dealt the same blows. They struggle on their side, and we struggle on ours, but we both have the boot on our neck, it\u2019s the same. That\u2019s how things work.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWas the list you presented to Insulza agreed on in advance?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EYes. We communicated about it via Ra\u00fal. There has to be a bridge between us, otherwise things probably wouldn\u2019t move forward, because they\u2019ve made their mistakes and so have we. But if we don\u2019t agree on some things, none of this will move ahead. In the past we\u2019ve done sit-ins, hunger strikes, marches, we\u2019ve submitted documents to all kinds of places, them on their side and us on ours, and sometimes together. It\u2019s work that\u2019s been going on for years. The idea was \u201cyou guys work on these points, and we\u2019ll work on yours\u201d, and we met in the middle and drew up a proposal together.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhen you request that the police act strictly on the basis of things that they catch people doing, and that they suspend operations, that limits them to a public security role, functioning purely as a deterrent. In practice what you\u2019re asking for is for them to suspend police investigations. Operations are the result of investigations. If the police can only catch people in the act of committing crimes, it makes no sense to conduct investigations.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ENo. People who commit crimes should be punished. What we\u2019re asking for is that they stop indiscriminate operations. Let\u2019s say Sa\u00fal, Tiberio, and I commit a crime; we live in the same neighborhood as our friends, relatives, and lots of other people we know. The police arrive, kick down our door and the doors of the other two, and there are 70 people with us who have nothing to do with the crime but who are part of our lives \u2014 they could be our relatives, and just because of that it\u2019s an \u201cillicit gathering\u201d. Some investigations and definitions are such bullshit\u2026 This guy [points to Trece] has come through some cases where they accuse a fucking 60-year-old woman of being the material author of a crime. Dionisio had a really fucked up case! His mom was ill, she could barely walk and barely visited him, and they tried to implicate her in something\u2026 How could you possibly think that an old lady is going to get mixed up in our crimes as a gang?\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat they say is that those people have roles like moving weapons, or sometimes they receive extortion money, sometimes they hide you\u2026 That\u2019s how the police explain detaining family members. If you commit a crime and I hide you in my house, that\u2019s a crime too.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re not saying that doesn\u2019t happen. In some cases it has. But let\u2019s be honest: they get 45 or 50 people because someone who\u2019s been detained, a former criminal or a criminal is trying to get some prison benefit, and they start telling tales. In the first statement it says that Dionisio\u2019s mom moved weapons, but she can\u2019t even walk. In the second statement they claim a lot of things; there\u2019s something about everyone. And in the third hearing, at trial, when they have to see him face to face, and the more serious investigation has begun, the judge realizes that the guy is lying. I mean, yeah, Dionisio is partly to blame, and Tiberio and Borromeo are guilty of \u201cillicit association\u201d [joint enterprise] and of those crimes. But for the other 74 people \u201cour deepest apologies that the criminal justice system is shit.\u201d They fucked up two years of these people\u2019s lives, exposed them in the national media, and then they say they\u2019re forgiving you when you never did anything.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIsn\u2019t it also true that asking for plea bargains to be eliminated means that gangs have more internal control, because it closes off one of people\u2019s ways out of the gang? You could also see it as a way for you to maintain control of your ranks.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003E85 percent of plea-bargain cases have been false. Or maybe 90.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ECrook: There are no fair trials in this country. The media, witnesses, and police agree on things between themselves. The witness doing the plea bargain identifies you from a photo lineup, but they don\u2019t know you. It\u2019s fucked up and the lawyer isn\u2019t even there. What they do is show them the photo so that motherfucker says \u201cthat\u2019s the guy.\u201d If you look into this we could help you with details of loads of documented cases where our homeboys are accused of murder, but they were in prison at the time.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: One of the most fucked-up things that Judge Delfino Parrilla says is \u201cyoung men, you put up a good defense, I\u2019ve listened to the defense statements, but I\u2019m sorry: my people and my society demand that I charge you.\u201d Pure shit! Parrilla, the trial judge in Santa Tecla, said that!\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ETrece: If you\u2019re of color, and the media are there, they\u2019ll charge you even if the person snitching on you is lying.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo more than criticizing the plea bargain witness, what you\u2019re asking for is that the process be improved.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe would like it to be eliminated, because of these cases I\u2019m telling you about.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ETrece: There are some people who talk when it\u2019s them who did it. They did the whole thing, and they accuse you. A shitload of people do that.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: We\u2019re asking that a special commission, whether that\u2019s presidential or international, study the cases we\u2019re going to present of plea bargains and false evidence, as well as the disappearance, murder, and torture of our homies. We have an archive of all the cases we\u2019ve told you about, what happened. There are photos, documentary evidence\u2026 Listen: that son of a bitch Parrilla has a case where they detained 75 people from Quezaltepeque, and the plea bargain witness says that multiple of them are the material authors of murders. It\u2019s not a question of the intellectual authors, but who the hitman was, the person who goes there and does the deed. We have documentation from the prison registry \u2014which is a legitimate source\u2014 and the judge has all the resources at hand to check if the document I\u2019m giving them is false\u2026 and they give that loser a load of documents showing that the homies who are accused had been in such and such a prison for some time, and he comes out saying that society wants him to charge them. And ruins their lives, gives them 75 years. That was like three and a half years ago. We have documentary evidence!\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo you\u2019re asking for a commission to be set up to review those cases. And you think you can provide evidence.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe have the files! It\u2019s not our word against theirs, we have witnesses, videos, documents, our family who can talk about when they went to get someone from their home and they never came back, or they turned up dead\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYou do realize that most of your demands have to do with getting rid of certain legal constructs, changing police conduct, taking the military off the streets. If the government allows for that, it would lead to the idea that it\u2019s gangs who mold the criminal justice system in this country.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s fucked up, because if we\u2019re talking about what the authorities are legally allowed to do, everything we\u2019re denouncing is illegal. The fact they charge me\u2026 Fuck! It\u2019s completely fucked up that I presented evidence that I\u2019m in prison, with official documents, saying \u201cI didn\u2019t kill them\u201d\u2026\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EI agree, but the problem isn\u2019t that there are judges, it\u2019s that there are bad judges. It\u2019s the same thing with plea bargains. But you\u2019re asking for the elimination of the plea bargain structure.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThere\u2019ll come a time when we\u2019ll be able to explain to you what it is that we want, and you\u2019ll understand.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThe first part of the negotiations had some basic points, which are: we\u2019ll improve prison conditions if the gang will stop the murders. Now the gang has set out another series of points in the hope that the conversations will move into a second phase, and with it the possibility that they will respond with a \u201cyes\u201d. But what if they say \u201cno\u201d?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019ll have to carry on knocking on doors. We didn\u2019t make it to where we are now just to get a no and accept that we lost.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIf formal negotiations aren\u2019t established, will the Mara\u2019s response be \u201cwe\u2019re going to carry on killing people\u201d?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ENo. We\u2019re going to look for international means. We can apply proper international political pressure. We can involve more people to seek a solution. Things have to change.\u00a0\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIs the question of murders at play? Could the current resolve be broken?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s really hard. We\u2019d have to be under insane pressure to say \u201cyou can\u2019t do this shit\u201d. We\u2019ve been fighting for years, believing that it can change.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIs there a scenario in which the gang decides that it\u2019s not worth it anymore to keep ordering their members on the streets to stand down from killing people?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ENo. First of all, we\u2019re men, we\u2019re gang members who have faith in our actions. Here in this rueda, and in the ruedas in other places, if there\u2019s some crazy person who doesn\u2019t have faith in what we\u2019re doing, well, fuck them. We want people here who are willing to do everything necessary for the conditions on the streets and in prisons to improve for our people. And if that requires drastic measures\u2026 Fuck, it\u2019s hard to go to people, to some guy who\u2019s fucking crazy because his enemies have killed his brothers, how to do you tell him \u201ccalm down dude\u201d? That\u2019s fucked! And to do it takes even more balls. We decided to get into all this as a team because it has to change. And the only way it will is for us to take the steps; we\u2019ve tried loads of things already and there\u2019s never been a government willing to help us. Never! Despite the fact we\u2019ve helped political campaigns from start to finish, including with our votes. There\u2019s never been anyone who said they\u2019d listen to us or even anyone who said \u201cI\u2019ll see what I can do\u201d. I don\u2019t need to give you a whole sermon to convince you of the sub-human conditions we live in. So the time has come for us to be protagonists, and take the necessary steps. Our mission is to sustain this for as long as possible, and for that we need agreements to happen, and for gestures to be made from the other sides too.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDiablo, in the meeting with Insulza you said you delivered the demands to the president on June 22. Are you saying that after three months there hasn\u2019t been a formal response to any of your demands?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: No-one has responded anything at all.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: There have been some legal improvements made. The report says \u201cfor improvements in the prison system\u201d; hey \u003Cem\u003Epap\u00e1\u003C\/em\u003E [my dude], we\u2019re not looking for TVs in cells while our people continue to live like shit. We\u2019re not doing everything possible in our control to stop the violence just for some television. It\u2019s really clear to us that this [points to a television in the room] is a legal right. If some asshole politician or public official thought that preventing me from watching my soccer team play would make me soften up, or relent, they\u2019re wrong.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EIt\u2019s very difficult to do what you guys have done, to stop the murders, and even more to do it overnight. It proves that you have a very high level of control of your structures.\u003Cbr \/\u003EAnd of exhaustion, too. Tired of the torture, of the indiscriminate raids\u2026\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhen you gave the streets the orders, was the immediate response \u201cokay, that\u2019s fine\u201d?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s a process, and for years we\u2019ve been looking for a response, for someone to pay attention to what we\u2019re doing. When we put our heads together we all started to see things differently.. We were in a war where they were killing us, and it\u2019s eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. We started to consider the economic costs of the violence and decided that the only way forward was to pull off something big, but the risk is that it could blow up on us. If the Mara don\u2019t agree with the decision they could put an end to both us and all this.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EA lot of people thought that in the days following the move from Zacatecoluca there would be a purge inside the gang. That they\u2019d kill you guys for it.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWell, we were confident in the knowledge that people were tired and wanted change, and that they trusted that the decisions that we were going to take, together with them, would be the right ones. And thankfully they were.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThere was no opposition from the street?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIn general there is a line in the gang. There might be one or two isolated cases but as it\u2019s them who are experiencing the repression, torture, the talegueadas [beatings], the coheteados [pistol-whippings], there also comes a moment where they decide to see where this path takes them.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIt\u2019s one thing to convince a homie to bring word that they\u2019re not going to do their beatings anymore. But let\u2019s not be stupid: there are cliques with more economic capacity than others, who reap more benefits from the criminal life than others. There are cliques which are just young guys trying it out, but there are others who now move medium-size quantities of drugs or who are more involved in organized crime. You can\u2019t put all the cliques in the same basket.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece:\u00a0 And why do you ask that, or think that, that some cliques have more or less, or that there are more people\u2026?\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYou can see it, it\u2019s evident.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: Have you done your research?\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThere are cliques who make all their income from extortion of community businesses; there are others who are working at a different economic level. It goes on here, in Honduras, Guatemala\u2026 the cliques aren\u2019t all the same.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: But there is one line and one word.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ECrook: In every clique this [points to his chest tattoos] is what\u2019s in charge; the M and the S. If the neighborhood tells us to jump off a cliff, everyone there does it. We have one solid word.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: We\u2019re a gang. It\u2019s not that we came to impose ourselves here. Sometimes it seems like it was \u201cthese guys said it, so that\u2019s what\u2019s done\u201d. No. There\u2019s consultation, and we\u2019re all there. We do consultations and research like you do. \u201cHow\u2019s your area doing? What\u2019s going on with you? This has been happening with me\u2026\u201d. There are opinions, we talk through ideas, and that\u2019s how we get to a collective decision, because the decision of one individual alone wouldn\u2019t be enough.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E \u003Cfigure class=\"pict pict_land pict_move_posc 0 cs_img cs_img--curr rule--ss_c\" data-shot=\"pict\" data-hint=\"pict\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"pict__pobj text-overflow\"\u003E\u003Cimg src=https:\/\/elfaro.net\/get_img?ImageWidth=4000&ImageHeight=1987&ImageId=40675 class=\"pobj\" style=\"max-width: 100%\" rel=\"resizable\" alt=\"Most of the Ranfla Nacional of MS-13, the gang's senior leadership, poses for this photo during an interview in 2012 by El Faro. Photo Pau Coll\" \/\u003E\u003C\/div\u003E \u003Cfigcaption class=\"pict__text cs_img_caption folk_content typo_buttons line--ss_s0c line--ss_s0c--auto block full-width text-overflow rule--ss_l relative\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"__content block-inline full-width align-top tint-text--idle relative\"\u003E Most of the Ranfla Nacional of MS-13, the gang's senior leadership, poses for this photo during an interview in 2012 by El Faro. Photo Pau Coll \u003Cdiv class=\"photographer text_italic rule--ss_l tint-text--idle\"\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/figcaption\u003E \u003C\/figure\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre you ready for every clique to leave the drug business, and other crimes as well?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re ready to talk about any topic that might reach the negotiating table. We\u2019re not closed off, we don\u2019t have pre-decided conditions because we don\u2019t want them to either. We\u2019re open to discussing any topic that interests not just the government but the people in general.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EBut normally legal activities bring in less money than the illegal. How do you explain all this to the homie who replies: \u201cBut Borromeo, I used to get a thousand a month and if the employment opportunity you\u2019re offering me goes well I might get 350. I don\u2019t want to\u201d?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s not Borromeo who\u2019ll decide. The gang will decide. And if the gang goes down that route, he\u2019ll have to obey and go down it, too. If not he\u2019ll have to do what some people did: step aside and carry out his dubious activities outside of the gang.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIs extortion an individual business for each gang member of a clique, or are there collective decisions made about who is charged and how much, and who isn\u2019t?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe can\u2019t answer that.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EOkay, let\u2019s go back then: There are gang members that manage a lot of money, and others who manage very little. How are you going to handle internal inequalities?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ELook\u2026 that\u2019s why we\u2019ve taken multiple things into account. We\u2019re thinking about a master plan which can give our children what they need. Not all of us are tradespeople, some of us might want to study or do something else. And we have to look for ways they can do that. When the FMLN and the military came to an agreement [in 1992], not everyone was a peasant farmer. That all has to be thoroughly studied, which is what we\u2019re doing at the moment. Last week we had our first serious study meeting, with our street comrades. Not everyone is going to like the idea, they might think \u201cshit, I need 500 dollars a month and these assholes are going to give me 300\u201d. We\u2019ve already had the first meeting to study all that.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo, is the Mara Salvatrucha doing a kind of census of labor skills, age, family? When you say a \u201cdeep study\u201d are you referring to that kind of analysis?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThat\u2019s it, yes. And other things as well, because obviously in a rural area, for example, you\u2019re not going to put up a call center. We\u2019re doing deep research to ask each area: \u201cSo, what the hell can we come up with here, what do you like to do? And what do you think this clique can do? And you guys..\u201d That\u2019s the kind of consultation we\u2019re doing, so that we have a solid base and we can present it when the resources are there.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhere was that meeting and how was it organized?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EI can\u2019t tell you those things. But believe me when I say it happened. We would have done it before but we couldn\u2019t see a light at the end of the tunnel.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EBut is it correct to say that there was resistance to that process in the Lourdes clique, for example, the San Cocos, the Fulton\u2026? I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s from the whole clique or if certain people don\u2019t like the line you\u2019re taking and end up opposing it.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIf a police source told you that, it\u2019s not true. Or was it one of us?\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESomeone who knows you.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThere are people who belonged to our organization but who aren\u2019t part of it anymore, but they still use the letters and the name of the clique they belonged to, and they continue committing crimes. Sometimes people from those neighborhoods identify those people, like \u201cso and so from that clique, he\u2019s up to his bullshit again\u2026\u201d, but it\u2019s shit that the gang has nothing to do with. They\u2019re members or ex-members, who we call \u003Cem\u003Elos pesetas\u003C\/em\u003E because they fucked it all up and betrayed us. There\u2019s been times where people have said that a Mara member did something or other, and then we do our research. If something happens in my area this guy [pointing to Trece] comes to me and says \u201chey, you\u2019re from there, what happened?\u201d. Then my mission is to investigate and take responsibility for what happened. But there have been fuck-ups by some members who are separate from us, and not because they\u2019re not following the line but because they they were high or wasted and didn\u2019t give a shit about anything, or because they\u2019ve shot someone up impulsively. But it wasn\u2019t on direct orders from the gang.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHave you ever had to use force to bring discipline to the gang?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ELook, within our organization there is a disciplining system that we follow.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDo the Mara reserve the opportunity to enforce the decisions of the Ranfla through violence, such as with guns? The people who killed Alison Renderos, the athlete, or the people who have pulled the trigger on other occasions; did they die?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003E(\u003Cem\u003ESilence\u003C\/em\u003E.) That case involved members of a rival gang, we don\u2019t know if..\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIf such a thing happened in the Mara Salvatrucha, is the punishment for breaking the truce death?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ELook\u2026 we have our disciplinary system, that\u2019s what we have to follow. We\u2019ve come here to change things, not to muddy the waters even further. Take the Las Margaritas case, which is one of the well-known ones: they implicated me directly. The media said that it came from a police source, and I know who that source is. Those people are so scared of the information we have. They know that there have been different meetings and various occasions where they have suggested different things of a delicate nature to us, and we\u2019ve said no and no and no and no.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhat\u2019s a \u201cdelicate thing\u201d?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EI can\u2019t tell you that.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre you talking about police groups, organized crime..?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: Various kinds of death squads\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: We\u2019re talking about various people who we\u2019ve had dealings with.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ETo criminal ends?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EOr to make money from them: popularity, success\u2026 those things that are to do with politics. And we were like \u201cno, you guys fucked it up, you guys sort it out\u201d. When they sent us to Zacatecoluca in 2005 things were really fucked up on the street.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E(The Mara Salvatrucha claim that the Antonio Saca administration sent many of their members to the Zacatecoluca maximum security prison in 2005 as an act of vengeance for the failure of negotiations with the Executive. Those negotiations were similar to the current ones, but much more direct and secretive. They say that the transfer isolated them from their structures and created chaos on the streets. The Mara say that without the leadership\u2019s guidance the group broke with their own rules and became more lethal.)\u00a0\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EGoing back to the previous point, you say you were accused of the murder of those two gang members in Las Magaritas. What happened there, and what does it have to do with what you\u2019re telling us?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThey were two homies.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ECan you explain?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThat case was really fucked up, because we found ourselves implicated in something where we had lost two comrades. The media came and the official version was \u201cthose guys didn\u2019t support the truce, so they killed them\u201d. Afterward another source said that Diablito ordered them to be killed because of problems they had had with his relatives. Look, none of us have the power nor authority to order someone to be killed, because we have serious responsibilities. It\u2019s not my word, or the word of Trece, or Snyder, or Crook, or anyone else here; there is one word, and the whole gang has a say in it. And why am I highlighting this? Because\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThis group doesn\u2019t have the authority to kill anyone?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re not here to decide on anyone\u2019s life. We\u2019re here to change things, to stop the old habit of killing someone who doesn\u2019t do this or that. We want everyone to have a clean conscience, and to understand that things have to move on because the gang is deciding to change. It\u2019s not something we\u2019re going to impose, we have to consult with a lot of people.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ETraditionally gangs have used violence as a way to discipline and purge their own members.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThat can\u2019t be denied.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHave you given up that method now? So this group doesn\u2019t have the authority to punish anyone with death?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: That\u2019s never happened.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: I\u2019m not going to answer that question. You can\u2019t say anything about what we can or can\u2019t do internally. We can\u2019t talk about our disciplinary practices. The investigation into the Las Margaritas case will continue, both as our own internal investigation and the police investigation, and findings will be made. But we want to make it clear: there are cases that are being used to tarnish us. For now it\u2019s me, but there are other cases our enemies use to try and screw us over. I\u2019ll say it loud and clear: there are certain officials, or high-ranking members of the police and intelligence services, who are against these negotiations and they\u2019re going to try and derail those of us here with actions like that. It\u2019s absurd to say that I would order two of my comrades dead \u2014people who grew up with me in the gang, who I\u2019ve known for years, since we were children\u2014 because I had a family problem.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo Droopy and the Western Mafia didn\u2019t die on the gang\u2019s orders?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThey didn\u2019t die on the gang\u2019s orders. The investigation will come \u2014 ours and the police\u2019s.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIn any case, out on the streets people are asking if the gang are building a peace process with blood. Do you understand that at some point you\u2019re going to have to make it clear to society, you\u2019ll have to answer that question?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EYes. And that\u2019s why we\u2019re taking care not to fall for any tricks and give extra ammo to the people who say \u201cwhat do they mean, they\u2019re not going to kill anyone, if they\u2019re killing each other?\u201d If this process is real we have to make it real.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EOne of the people who said that the Las Margaritas murders were part of an internal purge was David Mungu\u00eda Pay\u00e9s, your closest interlocutor in the state.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThe system, its politicians, and its intelligence officials have always claimed they could say what the gang was. And they\u2019ve had wrong information. They\u2019ve accused us of things we don\u2019t even know about, dude.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EDo you understand yourselves to be negotiating with the government?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EFor the moment we don\u2019t really have it clear. Our cards are on the table\u2026 we\u2019ll have to wait for a response.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EBut haven\u2019t you been negotiating with the government over these six months?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EFor me a negotiation is where you, or someone in your name, sits down with the other side and listens to what they want. Monsignor is important because he understands, on a human level, what we\u2019re living through here inside, and what we experience on the streets. We\u2019ve shown him evidence and he has understood. One of our strategies was to make use of the influence Monsignor could have in the state hierarchies. Remember who Monsignor is, who he has been for years and who he associates with. People listen to him. That\u2019s why we thought \u201cthey won\u2019t listen to us, but they will listen to you\u201d. We\u2019re aware that a government won\u2019t publicly accept that \u201cwe\u2019re going to sit down with the gangs and negotiate\u201d, because whoever says that can say goodbye to their political career.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EBut when Ra\u00fal Mijango and Fabio Colindres come and open the door for you, you know they do it through direct contact with, and permission from, the government minister.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EAs we understand it, they listen and pass it on.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWhich is exactly what you said you hope for from a negotiator. The gangs aren\u2019t expecting that Mauricio Funes will sit down in a chair and say \u201chello, Diablo\u201d. You were telling us: \u201cI understand that negotiation is a process in which two sides discuss things through mediators\u201d.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThe beginning of it.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo this is what happened: you were all in Zacatraz, then you came out Zacatraz; the military were here before but aren\u2019t anymore; before you used to go out with your families but not anymore; your children couldn\u2019t come to visit you before, but now they can; before, the homicide rate was through the roof, but not anymore. In El Faro that\u2019s what we would call a negotiation. Because all that has been possible through two people who talk to you and talk to the government.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ESomething like that.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIt\u2019s not the exact word that matters, but we need to have the same understanding.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EYeah, it\u2019s been something like that. You\u2019re correct. But for us Monsignor and Ra\u00fal still don\u2019t have the role of negotiating between the government and us.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYou say that because the president hasn\u2019t responded?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt hasn\u2019t been official, which is why we don\u2019t think that Ra\u00fal nor Monsignor will change everything that needs changing. They\u2019re important, because they\u2019ve already taken big steps toward what we want, but there still isn\u2019t someone there who is officially designated, and who has the authority to say \u201cyes, this is possible, no this is not possible, that we can negotiate\u2026\u201d.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThe fact that the president hasn\u2019t responded yet to your proposals \u2014 does that create problems for you with the people in the street? Does that make it more complicated for you to keep the process stable in the streets?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ENo, not yet. Remember, there\u2019s a lot of damage that\u2019s been done. So the president, his assistants, his security cabinet, should go step by step. If they\u2019re going to accept, they have to bring a counterproposal. Do you understand what putting that on the table involves? Let\u2019s say we take out one thing and add another. \u201cDo you agree?\u201d \u201cNo\u201d. \u201cWell, how about\u2026\u201d. I think they\u2019re studying it. It\u2019s becoming a political problem, there\u2019s going to be presidential elections soon; the President needs to be very careful. But we have faith that at least they\u2019ll listen to us. And then after, the international bombardment will come from us: finding people and entities who can get involved, because this is really worth it, for me, for my family, for everyone. We\u2019re patient.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIf the time comes, would it be an outlandish proposal for the gang, for example, to show where the disappeared are?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s not a crazy idea. It\u2019s the institutions\u2019 obligation to try and find out the truth and shed light on every demand that the Salvadoran people make. Victims\u2019 relatives, people who\u2019ve lost their sons and children\u2026 it\u2019s not an outrageous demand. It\u2019s real, it\u2019s happened. That\u2019s our history. A few days ago it was the International Day of the Disappeared and our country asked for the acknowledgement of culpability for what happened during the war, and to know where those people are.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre the Mara willing to do it?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re willing to do many things.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThe Mara are willing to show people where the disappeared are?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re willing to discuss any idea that\u2019s on the table.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ETrece: But if we don\u2019t know where they are, what then?\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre the Mara willing to disarm?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re willing to put any idea on the table and discuss it.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre the Mara willing to hand over homies who are wanted for crimes?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re willing to talk about any topic that comes up.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre the Mara willing to disband?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re willing to discuss any topic that comes up.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThat\u2019s interesting. A lot of people have that expectation as an outcome of negotiations. They say, well, the Mara Salvatrucha and their rival gang are criminal organizations. Right?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003E(\u003Cem\u003EDiablo sits down.\u003C\/em\u003E)\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd there are people who want to know if at the end of this process the Mara Salvatrucha will stop existing.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: You tell me, if you have a family\u2026 would you break up your family? This is my family, the people you see here [points at the other gang members present].\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre you going to stop initiating new homies? Are you going to stop setting up structures, and links with \u003Cem\u003Epalabreros\u003C\/em\u003E?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EDiablo: We see ourselves as a problem because of the crimes that happen, that harm us, our families, and the country. That\u2019s why your questions get to us: as Trece said, this is our family. You have to understand, our actions made us criminals and have marginalized us in this society, but these guys will never stop being my comrades.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThat\u2019s why we ask you, because...\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: And that\u2019s why I already gave you an answer, a very clear answer. And I asked you a question.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd I\u2019m replying: I would not break up my family.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: Well that\u2019s where we\u2019ve gotten to on that.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWe understand that you\u2019re not going to stop being friends\u2026\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re comrades.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003E\u2026But a structure has its own dynamics, hierarchies, forms of organization. A group of friends doesn\u2019t have rituals to become a member or to leave, they don\u2019t have laws, no-one tells anyone what to do\u2026 It\u2019s not about if you\u2019re going to stop talking to Trece or Diablo, but if you\u2019re going to take apart the structural framework which makes you an organization. If this all works out, how do you imagine yourselves in the future?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ESnyder: Everything depends on what they give us: if they allow us, our people, our families on the streets to have opportunities, work, ways to feed our children\u2026 it shouldn\u2019t just be the prison system to repress us, there should be correspondent opportunities so that in freedom you can apply yourself and you have a place, you know? Like, a member of the Mara Salvatrucha who also works, who exists, but who is also useful to society.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: It\u2019s as if they\u2019ve taken out the part of the Constitution that says that every citizen always has the right to gather with others as long as it\u2019s for peaceful reasons. We want to deal with the violence and illegal activities, but let\u2019s have the rights that are in the Constitution, the right to be comrades, to meet up, to go out and hang out wherever we want, without violence.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EChele: The thing is that we\u2019re a gang, and we\u2019re always going to be. Maybe the gang\u2019s actions are beyond the limits of what\u2019s tolerable. We have rules; there are things that got out of control, which is how we got to where we were, and that\u2019s why society is against us, because of our own actions. We want to continue as a gang, but also to be useful to the Salvadoran people in general.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ESnyder: And for our families.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E \u003Cfigure class=\"pict pict_land pict_move_posc 0 cs_img cs_img--curr rule--ss_c\" data-shot=\"pict\" data-hint=\"pict\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"pict__pobj text-overflow\"\u003E\u003Cimg src=https:\/\/elfaro.net\/get_img?ImageWidth=4000&ImageHeight=2669&ImageId=40677 class=\"pobj\" style=\"max-width: 100%\" rel=\"resizable\" alt=\"In 2012, more than 2,000 incarcerated people were packed into a prison designed for 800 people in Ciudad Barrios. According to the OAS, El Salvador was already the country with the most overcrowded prisons on the American continent. Photo Pau Coll\" \/\u003E\u003C\/div\u003E \u003Cfigcaption class=\"pict__text cs_img_caption folk_content typo_buttons line--ss_s0c line--ss_s0c--auto block full-width text-overflow rule--ss_l relative\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"__content block-inline full-width align-top tint-text--idle relative\"\u003E In 2012, more than 2,000 incarcerated people were packed into a prison designed for 800 people in Ciudad Barrios. According to the OAS, El Salvador was already the country with the most overcrowded prisons on the American continent. Photo Pau Coll \u003Cdiv class=\"photographer text_italic rule--ss_l tint-text--idle\"\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/figcaption\u003E \u003C\/figure\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ENobody doubts that the Mara Salvatrucha and the other gang have lowered the number of murders. That\u2019s an undeniable fact. But nor can we deny that the gang keeps communities it has taken over in a state of terror. Citizens, who are as poor as you are, still pay their rent, still fear for their children when they go to school, they\u2019re still scared of you\u2026\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003E(\u003Cem\u003EDiablo nods.\u003C\/em\u003E)\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003E\u2026The machine has stopped killing, but it still has the same ability to do it. How can this terror be broken?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThat\u2019s what we\u2019re fucking trying to do.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ESnyder: Let me tell you something. In order for a student to aspire to reach the next grade, they need school books, pencils, training, education. Do you see what I\u2019m saying? A way to aspire toward change. But if there isn\u2019t that, they don\u2019t pass the grade.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: So far we\u2019ve been alone in this huge thing we\u2019ve gotten into. We\u2019ve learned bad habits and need to go back to our principles. And that\u2019s hard. We\u2019ve been doing it for six months, my man. And for us these six months have been a great success, but a great success that needs to keep moving forward, and again, that\u2019s why we\u2019re saying that there needs to be fuel from the outside, not just from us. We\u2019re doing everything humanly possible for this to move forward. That\u2019s why we had the Insulza visit, that\u2019s why we\u2019re trying to get organizations to work with us, that\u2019s why we\u2019re challenging the business people. How can life in the streets change if there are no opportunities?\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESa\u00fal [Trece] says: \u201cwe\u2019re not going to break apart our family; we want to stop committing crimes.\u201d However, if the Mara Salvatrucha have managed to bring about these negotiations it\u2019s because they\u2019re powerful and frightening. How can we know, as a society, that this structure with all that strength won\u2019t go back to crime? How do we know that this all won\u2019t just become a permanent negotiation? For now you\u2019re asking for employment\u2026 but then you might ask for \u2014and I\u2019m making this up but\u2014 hospitals for your people. You\u2019re always going to have more of a voice than other groups. Do you not consider it legitimate for the state to demand that you break down that muscle?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ELet me tell you something, my friend. [\u003Cem\u003EDiablo turns towards Joaqu\u00edn, alias Chele, who is to his left.\u003C\/em\u003E] This guy\u2019s a big brain, right? [\u003Cem\u003EHe laughs\u003C\/em\u003E]. I was all good vibes but this guy whispers some great ideas in my ear. [\u003Cem\u003EThey all laugh and joke together\u003C\/em\u003E].\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EChele: Your questions\u2026 you need to understand something: gangs are groups that each of its members identifies with, and they feel good about being there. Do you see what I\u2019m saying? When we said that we were the problem, and that we can be the solution, what we\u2019re saying is that we\u2019re not going to continue to harm people, you feel me? Let\u2019s make this clear: the gangs have a line, and the Mara Salvatrucha will always keep their line, and our whole idea is that we\u2019re not willing to cause people bother and suffering anymore. But we\u2019ve certainly already answered this question you\u2019ve been repeatedly asking us, and we\u2019ll answer you again: the Mara Salvatrucha will always be the Mara Salvatrucha.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EWith your cliques, your cell structures\u2026 those aren\u2019t going to change?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003E(\u003Cem\u003ESilence.\u003C\/em\u003E)\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EOkay, let\u2019s go back to the previous point. You mentioned \u201cturning the bad habits around\u201d, and that would involve breaking up the mutation of the Mara in El Salvador, stopping the extreme violence and going back to the more calculated violence of the Mara in, for example, Los Angeles.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: Everything starts somewhere. It\u2019s not that we sought out violence, we were forced to do it. If they kill one of your brothers, they blow you up, too\u2026 And that fuels the cycle, it\u2019s how things have come to what they\u2019ve come to. They brought us to this point through repression.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThe thing is that for this all to turn around\u2026\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ETrece: For that to happen, things that happened before can\u2019t happen again, from our part and from the state.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd you guys have to maintain your leadership in the gang. Whatever weakens your leadership also weakens the truce.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWhat would weaken it is if it fell on deaf ears, and if the repressive policies, the criminal justice system designed to screw you over, the torture, the shootings, the police murders, and all that continues.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAgain: this process began with a prison transfer which made it easier for leaders from both neighborhoods to exercise direct command, because if not it would have been more complicated. You guys had to have effective, real, and fast control to carry out the agreement. So that\u2019s how it works.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EYes.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd what comes after depends on you maintaining that leadership and control. In practice what\u2019s happened is a coordinated decision between the gang and the state in order to make sure they are aligned, and that there is a shared mentality between people who currently have control of the Mara and the state, and that the Mara is less disperse and less in the hands of young people or people who think differently. So people who have had a different perspective over recent years are under the Mara\u2019s control again. That\u2019s how that works.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThat movement was necessary in order for this to work, of course. They had to open the space for it to become real. And for this to continue and be long-lasting there has to be a repeat dose. Why is there still no-one who has said \u201clook, guys, what do you want to work in? I\u2019ve got millions to throw at whatever and I can do this if the president gives it the green light\u201d. Why hasn\u2019t that happened? Easy: one guy\u2019s right-wing and another guy left-wing, and so one guy says I\u2019m not going to do the same thing as him with my resources and my help, even if it\u2019s a success, because that would be left-wing success.\u00a0\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHaven\u2019t you considered that maybe the Mara don\u2019t exactly go around doing good things, so it\u2019s not easy to hear someone say that the \u003Cem\u003Emareros\u003C\/em\u003E should have work? The gang have sent signals, but they need to make amends with the Salvadoran people. Do you understand that that\u2019s another one of the obstacles?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThe will is there, but someone has to say \u201cI\u2019m in\u201d, and that\u2019s not easy. There are victims, there is harm, pain, and that\u2019s the hardest thing to cure\u2026 It\u2019s also hard to make someone whose life we\u2019ve fucked up see that they have to help us, just because now we\u2019ve decided that we want help.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ELos Angeles didn\u2019t take to it kindly.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWe\u2019re talking about this country. We\u2019re accountable for our actions here.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAre the experiences of the United States, Guatemala, and Honduras irrelevant to this process?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s not irrelevant, but we need steps to benefit our people, and us.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIndependently of what the homies up there think.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EChele: Their time will come, when they\u2019ll understand that what we\u2019re doing isn\u2019t a betrayal. As a gang we\u2019re never going to betray the terms of the gang, which are the same whether it\u2019s in L.A., Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, or wherever the Mara Salvatrucha are. There will come a time when our homeboys in other countries will understand that we\u2019re doing something that won\u2019t affect the gang in the long-term, we\u2019re just trying to move forward, to be productive, to help our people and the Salvadoran people in general. While we don\u2019t break with anything we can go really far, as my colleague said. It depends on the opportunities we\u2019re given.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EUp till now it\u2019s been easier for society to put their trust in individuals than in the Mara as a group. Over recent years gang members who wanted to leave the violence behind had to distance themselves from the gang, because the Mara wouldn\u2019t allow almost anyone to leave the violence.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThat\u2019s not true.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIsn\u2019t it?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThere are lots of people who left because they betrayed us, and those are the people who say bad things about the gang. We\u2019re going to invite you to an event that we have coming up soon with lots of our comrades, and you guys will admire it and be like \u201cdamn, those guys were from the Mara\u201d. To give you an example, you\u2019ll be like \u201cthis guy can do this, or that, that guy studies at university, or this guy works in my office\u2026\u201d and then they tell you they were in the Mara. They\u2019ll show you that if anyone from this group or from outside of it wants to have a productive, tranquil life, and they say that, and they don\u2019t owe us anything nor betray us \u2014as Joaqu\u00edn just said\u2014 there\u2019s the door, dude, and we\u2019re always here to help you out with whatever you need.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHas it been like that in recent years?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s always been like that.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ETrece: Always.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EDiablo: But there have always been people who\u2019ve taken the exit route through betrayal. And all traitors pay with their life. So they\u2019re uneasy, they say things\u2026 and certain things they\u2019ve done make it seem that there\u2019s no solution. But we\u2019re reflecting on our activities, preparing ourselves and calling other Mara members to say \u201cshould we get into this?\u201d. Because we think it will bring opportunities.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYour reply is surprising. So nowadays if a homie doesn\u2019t take any sides, doesn\u2019t owe anything to the neighborhood\u2026 if they want to pack their bags they can?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThey should go. We\u2019ll say thank you for everything comrade, and we\u2019ll still be here.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EIt\u2019s that easy?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EIt\u2019s that simple and it\u2019s been like that forever.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ETrece: That\u2019s been our root.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EChele: Whoever wants to do something else with their life, be with their children, or become a Christian\u2026 we have loads of homies here who are Christian.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYou don\u2019t call them pesetas.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ENo, man, they\u2019re our comrades!\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ESo nowadays if a member of Mara Salvatrucha decides to leave the gang, they\u2019re allowed to leave freely. I mean, if the headline here was \u201cMara Salvatrucha: any member who wants to leave can do it\u201d, would that be correct?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EDiablo: It\u2019s always been like that\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EAnother person: That\u2019s our history\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EAnother person: Whoever has wanted to cool off, they should, right?\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EChino (\u003Cem\u003Ehaving looked uncomfortable with the previous questions, and shaking his head at his colleagues\u2019 answers\u003C\/em\u003E): That headline.. I don\u2019t know why we\u2019re going so deep into this. You know what? That\u2019s enough about the Mara Salvatrucha, okay? I don\u2019t know why you want to get so deep into the gang. You know what? We\u2019ve answered a lot of questions and you still want to go further. It\u2019s a personal thing for us.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EChino, let me explain what the\u2026\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EChino: We\u2019re trying to show you guys some of the good things we\u2019re doing, so that everything in these negotiations goes well. But you guys come and want to get into deeper things. How far do you want to pry? We\u2019re doing all this so that things go well out there, do you understand? What we\u2019re asking for is what the government owes us. All prisoners have rights, and they\u2019ve taken those away from us just because they feel like it. You want to make this all about gangs. And you know what? With all due respect, I\u2019ve had it up to here. You have your work, and I want to have my gang. You ask us a lot of compromising questions, really compromising. And you won\u2019t stop until you come out with what you want. So, with all respect, show us respect and we\u2019ll respect you, too.\u00a0\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E(Chino had remained in silence during most of the interview, however it\u2019s clear that now he will talk and will not allow us any interruptions. He is nearing 50 years old, and boasts Mara ancestry, claiming to have witnessed the group\u2019s birth on the streets of Los Angeles. He is angry. His voice booms through the room. Other gang members who were waiting in the corridor hear the altercation and approach, curious about what has made their homeboy so angry. Chino, sitting in a corner, has thrown his body forward. He looks into our eyes and gesticulates harshly.)\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E \u003Cfigure class=\"pict pict_land pict_move_posc 0 cs_img cs_img--curr rule--ss_c\" data-shot=\"pict\" data-hint=\"pict\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"pict__pobj text-overflow\"\u003E\u003Cimg src=https:\/\/elfaro.net\/get_img?ImageWidth=4000&ImageHeight=2669&ImageId=40678 class=\"pobj\" style=\"max-width: 100%\" rel=\"resizable\" alt=\"The Ranfla Nacional of the Mara Salvatrucha during one of the interviews they granted to El Faro in 2012. At the back of the group, Chino listens into the conversation before interrupting. Photo Pau Coll\" \/\u003E\u003C\/div\u003E \u003Cfigcaption class=\"pict__text cs_img_caption folk_content typo_buttons line--ss_s0c line--ss_s0c--auto block full-width text-overflow rule--ss_l relative\"\u003E \u003Cdiv class=\"__content block-inline full-width align-top tint-text--idle relative\"\u003E The Ranfla Nacional of the Mara Salvatrucha during one of the interviews they granted to El Faro in 2012. At the back of the group, Chino listens into the conversation before interrupting. Photo Pau Coll \u003Cdiv class=\"photographer text_italic rule--ss_l tint-text--idle\"\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/div\u003E \u003C\/figcaption\u003E \u003C\/figure\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ELook, it wasn\u2019t our intention to offend anyone. When we were talking to Borromeo\u2026\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EChino: How old are you?\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003E33.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EChino: You were three years old when I first joined gangs! And you think I\u2019m going to like it if you come and tell me we should stop existing, asking if we\u2019re going to do that? You know what? I don\u2019t think you have the right to\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003ELet me explain why we ask these sorts of questions: our job is to represent every question people out there might have.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EGang member one: The questions aren\u2019t an issue, but this guy keeps insisting. How are we going to\u2026 \u201ccan anyone leave the gang\u201d? Dude, I don\u2019t think\u2026 that\u2019s for us to decide, it\u2019s our thing.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E(People continue to enter the room. They surround us. Borromeo acknowledges his colleagues, and tries to recover the tone of the conversation. But Chino\u2019s intervention has gotten the homeboys worked up, and now they try to speak.)\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EBlacky: I understood your question: it\u2019s if we\u2019re going to wake up tomorrow and want more privileges, or if we\u2019re going to start demanding more privileges from the government. Right? They start negotiating with the state, and then they fall into a vicious cycle where they extort the state. But you know what? None of our requests are outside of the law.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EGang member 2: Stop! You guys are rich kids, so let me put it like this: the children of the elite base things purely on what they\u2019ve studied and learned. And so you ask these probing questions. Look, we come from \u003Cem\u003Ecampesino\u003C\/em\u003E stock, do you get me? We do fucked up things in order to survive, so that\u2026 look, [\u003Cem\u003Ehe passes his hand over his throat\u003C\/em\u003E], so they don\u2019t kill us. So that our enemies don\u2019t kill us, and the system doesn\u2019t either. Do you see what I\u2019m saying? We\u2019ve had to watch our backs for a very long time.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003EChino: You have to understand that some things are over the line with us. But you rummage and rummage and rummage, with your questions. You come and you want to write some crazy report, and I respect that, but we have our limits, too, and all we\u2019re asking is that you understand that. The same question again and again and again and again, when we\u2019re already giving you an answer. Do you want to help with this process? It\u2019s not that you have to be on our side, but well, you need to know where you should be.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E(About 15 more people have entered the room by this point, and the discussion continues with the same tone for several minutes before the photojournalist pauses it in order to ask the gang members\u2019 permission to go around the prison with his camera. The group bursts into laughter: \u201cnaaaah, man, we\u2019re not going to touch you\u201d, \u201chey, this guy\u2019s scared\u201d. Pau Coll\u2019s request was like a bucket of cold water over a room catching fire. The atmosphere, which had been tense, turned sarcastic. Someone jokes about swapping one of their homeboys, who looks just like Pau, for the photographer nd slipping past the guards. They all laugh. Chino folds his arms again and leans back against the wall. After various jokes the interview starts up again.)\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHave the Mara Salvatrucha discussed the possibility of some kind of amnesty for pesetas [traitors]?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EWell now you\u2019ve given me another good idea\u2026 we haven\u2019t discussed it. (Diablo says to Chele, who has been taking notes for most of the conversation: \u201cput that down, we can negotiate on that, too.\u201d) Very good question\u2026\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd the answer is\u2026?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EThere is no answer. We\u2019re going to analyze it, because they\u2019re complex and delicate ideas that can\u2019t be talked through right now. It\u2019s our word we\u2019d be putting out, and the word of the Mara Salvatrucha should be respected.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnother question along those lines: Will the brother, mother, or son of an enemy gang member, of a person who lives in the community of a rival gang, be able to walk around Las Margaritas, for example, without considering themselves in danger?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EA chorus of voices: They already do. \/ They do go around. \/ It\u2019s not a problem. \/ It\u2019s the person, not the family.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003ESirra: Hold on, the families of both groups don\u2019t have anything to do with it, nothing at all.\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd the homeboys?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ESirra: That\u2019s another story, dude, but relatives have nothing to do with it and they\u2019ve always been able to go wherever they want.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EAnd do you think there\u2019ll come a time when a member of the enemy gang will be able to walk through Mara Salvatrucha territory?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ESirra: Look, we can\u2019t answer that, about if a gang member could go through the rival\u2019s territory\u2026 We can\u2019t answer, but we can make it clear to you that there\u2019s never been any restrictions on relatives going wherever they want.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EYou don\u2019t make the family of a gang member pay for what they owe you?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003ELook, you\u2019re getting into deeper topics we haven\u2019t talked about yet, and you want to get an exclusive on things that might come up further down the line. We can\u2019t give you an answer because there has to be a proper debate, a consensus, and an agreement, because further down the line that\u2019s useful to us as well. So\u2026 you\u2019ve got me into something and, well, those are things which can be negotiated as well, right? And we\u2019ll put \u201cthis one was El Faro\u2019s idea\u2026\u201d [they all laugh].\u00a0\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EHa, ha. Okay. Look, Adam Blackwell, the Secretary of Security of the OAS says that the possibility of \u003Ca href=\"http:\/\/www.elfaro.net\/es\/201207\/noticias\/9110\/\"\u003Emore weapons handovers\u003C\/a\u003E is being discussed at the moment. Is that correct?\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EYou\u2019ll find out about things when they go public.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cstrong\u003EThat sounds like a yes.\u003C\/strong\u003E\u003Cbr \/\u003EYou\u2019ll find out about things when they go public.\u003C\/p\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cbr\/\u003E\u003Cp style=\"text-align: right;\" dir=\"ltr\"\u003E\u003Cem\u003E*Translated by Ali Sargent\u003C\/em\u003E\u003C\/p\u003E"}