The Indigenous authorities who just months ago thwarted efforts to annul the electoral victory of Bernardo Arévalo are still working to build inroads with the new administration. Maya and Xinka leaders have traveled monthly to the National Palace to discuss the national agenda and have received the president in their territories, something without precedent in Guatemala. And cooperation agreements have been signed with the three Ixil Mayor’s Offices of Quiché, the Xinka Parliament, and a slate of influential campesino organizations in order to propel development, protect the right to prior consultation, and fight discrimination.
Even so, José Santos Sapón, attorney for the Ixil Mayor’s Office of Nebaj and a participant in these extensive negotiations, reproaches the government for having “appointed incompetent people” to key posts —especially regarding hydroelectric dams and mining— and accuses the administration of “negotiat[ing] with hydroelectric businesses without taking into consideration the Ixil people” — this in spite of the agreement signed in mid-March by the president and the Ixil Mayor of Nebaj, Feliciana Herrera Ceto. “Bernardo has nowhere to turn and is being pressured by many sectors, including those who participated in the [Indigenous] movement, to impose their conditions,” he explains. “That limits his capacity to clean up corruption.”
But the sharpest rebuke of Sapón, who from his first response in this interview shows a taste for sarcasm, is reserved for the Indigenous movements themselves. He knows most of the actors since over a decade ago —in 2015 he cofounded the Iximulew Ancestral Authority, a roundtable born to influence the proposed constitutional reforms that year— and asserts that new debates have emerged in recent months over the legitimacy of certain spokespersons: “There are people who already took positions in the government who [falsely] presented themselves as an authority, or as advisors, of Indigenous people,” he says.
Before becoming an Ixil authority, Sapón was also president in 2013 of the 48 Cantons of Totonicapán, the nationally influential K’iche’ Mayan municipal authority that governs his hometown and rotates leaders each year. Ancestral leadership roles are generally circumscribed by ethnicity and place of birth, but it is from this peculiar worldview that he points to the complexity of striking agreements with both the Arévalo administration and within the very ranks of movements as broad as they are diverse: “It is not a question of how many Indigenous people are in government, but rather how they respond to our needs,” he argues. “Just as they are not prepared to understand us, nor are we prepared to govern alongside them.”
From last October to January, Indigenous leaders led mass demonstrations for 106 days.…
(Sapón interjects with irony) That famous phrase, 106 days…
…Late into the night after inauguration, the Ixil Mayor of Nebaj, Feliciana Herrera Ceto, told Bernardo Arévalo that she was placing in his hands the defense of democracy. Has that trust born fruit?
The government has been criticized for certain lukewarmness. I’m not here to defend them tooth and nail, but we must take into account that there are legal problems keeping the president from removing the attorney general, one of the main aspirations of the Indigenous peoples. And in Guatemala we have no tradition of democracy, but rather of mediocrity and corruption. There are few spaces that demand a high level of professionalism, and even fewer in the public sector. We have no administrative career track. Bernardo has nowhere to turn and is being pressured by many sectors, including those who participated in the [Indigenous] movement, to impose their conditions. That limits his capacity to clean up corruption. But at the same time, he has also appointed incompetent people.
Are you saying that the new administration is not sufficiently capable?
The government is missing key pieces, especially at posts that are decisive in facing corruption. Many of those he has chosen have served in past governments and have kept their jobs, whether because he cannot find someone else or because he is being told what to do. I don’t know which is the case, but I am convinced that most of the people in the administration stay there because they are incapable of surviving on their own as professionals or creators of wealth, and hop from one governing party to the next to maintain the status quo. In Guatemala we do not prepare ourselves to govern; we chase a position even if we are not qualified. It starts in elementary school, when parents do the homework, and on through university, where Saint Google fills in the blanks.
Are you referring to the most senior posts?
There are capable people among the ministers, but there are definitely challenges at the vice minister level. It is my understanding that the vice minister of sustainable development of the Ministry of Energy and Mines [Edvin Danilo Mazariegos Can, who was fired in late April], for example, was recommended for the job, and is from Totonicapán, but is a cunning, corrupt man. I suppose the president has received various recommendations and betrayals of this sort.
Is it not true that the president is seeking balance among many sectors?
That’s right. He is trying to keep the ship afloat so that no sector rebels or generates another conflict bigger than the current one. I even think that some things are being planned to generate criticism of the government, like the death of Farruko [Pop, a Q’eqchi’ Mayan influencer and singer strangled in Zona 18 of Guatemala City] or the attempted assassination of the prosecutor [Miriam Aída Reguero in April]. The corrupt are greeting his search for balance with destabilization.
In the case of Farruko Pop, are you saying that there was an effort to generate the perception that the government was not getting to the bottom of his murder?
That’s about right. Indicators of criminality have been dropping, but there is an intention to suggest that the government is not in control of public security, in order to break the camel’s back. As a country we are sensationalists, so sensitive subjects like this one can create trends on social media against the government. But they have been handling this well.
The government has promised a sustained dialogue with the Indigenous authorities who mobilized last year. Have they kept their doors open?
Yes. The president has opened up a space once a month to hear from Indigenous leaders. In governments since 1524, that is unheard of. No government had received us in the National Palace, even if I don’t like that medieval label. Now, the quality and depth of the conversation depend on us, but our representatives are missing this opportunity. Those spaces need not necessarily be filled by Indigenous people, but rather by those with the necessary preparation and quality. We need people with a vision of our country that is multiethnic, pluricultural, and multilingual, people like Mexican philosopher Pablo González Casanova, who from the Ladino [post-colonial mixed-race] world have seen the need for multiculturalism. We are not talking about capitalism or Marxism, but rather ethnic and cultural diversity.
What are the Ixil Mayors’ Offices seeking from this monthly forum?
On March 13 we signed a work agenda with the government that included urgent issues like the scrutiny of public investment and corruption in the three Ixil municipalities, but also long-term matters: We ask that every representative of the Guatemalan state comprehend the cultural diversity of this country, and that they understand that there are Indigenous authorities —not only mayors— with whom they must coordinate local projects. Every time that a project is undertaken in Indigenous territories, it must be consulted with us.
From October to January there were numerous meetings between Indigenous leaders and members of private sector organizations. Has this dialogue continued?
Since January, to my knowledge there have been no meetings with the private sector. I suspect that space no longer exists. In those meetings, we the Ixil told the señores of the private sector that they must understand that the country is composed of Indigenous peoples whose legitimate representatives were here before their forefathers arrived in Guatemala. They must understand, for the sake of national development and harmony, that not only their businesses exist. I don’t think that message was really taken to heart.
Since inauguration, the president has dismissed two ministers —Environment and Infrastructure— who previously worked in the conservative private sector. What do you ask of the new ministers?
That they be transparent and inclusive of Indigenous peoples. The Ministry of Energy and Mines has already tried to negotiate with hydroelectric businesses without taking into consideration the Ixil people. The minister must recall that a work agenda has already been signed. The Ixil people are not opposed to development; what we reject is arbitrariness.
Since the end of January, the 48 Cantons of Totonicapán have disappeared from the joint statements signed by over a dozen Indigenous authorities. You were once president of the 48 Cantons. What is happening to the October alliance?
There is a problem in the 48 Cantons: We rotate our authorities —and with them, our priorities— every year. Having saved democracy and respect for popular will, the Assembly of Mayors is prioritizing other issues.
Is there not still a latent threat against the election results?
Of course there is. And the Executive Board met with President Arévalo in Totonicapán. But I haven’t had access to their requests, which have not been made public.
The Ixil Mayor’s Office must know the reason why the 48 Cantons no longer sign the joint statements.
The thing is that some of the seven peoples who started the movement of October 2023 consider themselves to be saviors of democracy and, starting in January, began placing conditions on the government. But one of our peoples’ guiding principles is that we will not seek government positions.
What is getting in the way today of a common agenda?
I think it is due to the external influence of the private sector or traditional political parties. Some colleagues in San Cristóbal Verapaz, for example, ask themselves, “Why is it that our Indigenous Mayor’s Office gets together all the way over there in Quetzaltenango?” It’s because of the participation of people tied to telecoms companies that are seeking licenses that must be approved by Indigenous populations. But if that Indigenous Mayor’s Office were to show up for discussions with President Arévalo, he would have to listen to them, too, and that is where the agenda gets diluted.
And there are interests not only from the private sector, but also from organized criminal groups and military officials who committed human rights violations during the armed conflict. From the international community, too: there are NGOs organizing Indigenous communities in Ixil territory. There is also the Council of the Ixil People, which claims to be an Indigenous authority. So others like 48 Cantons, Sololá, or the Xinkas call on the president to “kick out fulano [so-and-so]”, and when he does not, they grow upset.
Are you saying that there are those who illegitimately present themselves in the capital as Indigenous leaders?
That’s right. I have examples, but best not make more enemies. There are people who already took positions in the government who presented themselves as an authority, or as advisors, of Indigenous peoples. The government cannot keep tabs on all of that, but runs the risk of excluding true authorities or accepting those who are not. That is Bernardo’s dilemma.
In your own territory, what does it mean to have legitimacy?
In the 48 Cantons of Totonicapán, legitimacy means being chosen by my community to the Assembly of Mayors; and for the people of Totonicapán, through that Assembly, to elect their president. Each territory has its own logic of representation, but an authority has the backing of their people. The 48 Cantons’ own people criticize them, but that does not mean that I do not respect my president, with all his successes and failures. Similarly, many people disagree with Feliciana [Herrera Ceto, First Coordinating Mayor of the Ixil Mayor’s Office of Nebaj] either because she is young or because she is a woman, but we need to respect her, because the communities chose her.
On the first day of the ongoing genocide trial against retired general Benedicto Lucas García, outside of court there were signs that read “We are the true Ixil people, there was no genocide.”
Indeed. In each of our peoples that occurs. There is always opposition, even in our own families. For example, I’m from a pretty small cradle of around 110 or 115 families. At least 80 or 90 of us are in agreement with the local authorities; the rest are not.
It would appear that, just as Guatemala is debating as a country what it means to live in democracy, Indigenous peoples are having parallel talks in their own communities.
Exactly. Today I got up at six in the morning and a car passed by with a loudspeaker: “Please, neighbors, we are calling an urgent assembly tonight at seven.” But is it valid to convene an assembly over loudspeaker? What about WhatsApp? And we’re only touching the announcement. We Indigenous peoples are having those same debates.
We greatly value the president’s effort. Before, everyone had used our peoples just as another vote to legitimate their power, but they never listened to us. But it is not a question of how many Indigenous people are in government, but rather how they respond to our needs. Just as they are not prepared to understand us, nor are we prepared to govern alongside them.
How might that dynamic change?
There must be more openness from the Ladino and Indigenous peoples. Unfortunately, corruption has been a cancer since the arrival of the Spaniards, just like the false interpretations of our life as Indigenous peoples: for example, that we say thank you for everything or try to give recompense. This, in turn, has been taken as submission, in order to strengthen the corruption of the Spaniard, later of the Criollo, and now of the Ladino. We must make the effort to understand each other.
