El Faro first published this interview in Spanish on Oct. 8, 2012 and translated it prior to the watershed trials in the U.S. of 27 senior leaders of MS-13.
They are called the Ranfla, or rueda (circle). They are the highest echelon of the Mara Salvatrucha in El Salvador. El Faro has been trying to speak to the group since March 8, 2012, when most of their members were transferred from the maximum-security Zacatecoluca Prison in Ciudad Barrios. After the transfer they sent a message to the streets to stop all murders. The Ranfla insist they are spokespersons and not bosses, and that no decision can be made without everyone else weighing in; “no-one risks anything, everyone risks everything” is their slogan. But in the gang’s pseudo-horizontal structure, their opinions and deliberations carry the weight of authority. At their age, with their experience, intelligence, and resolve, each of them has earnt the trust and respect of the rest. When they are together they carry the word of the Mara Salvatrucha-13.
In the past they have not made public declarations, and are even less likely to speak to journalists than to their enemies in 18th Street. But over recent months it has become unexpectedly routine for MS-13 to give interviews to discuss the unforeseen truce with 18th Street. They have put out statements, held press conferences, and appeared on television. But before speaking to El Faro they demanded an apology for our coverage of the truce, which revealed both gangs to be in negotiations with the administration of President Mauricio Funes and posed the possibility that some leaders received payment as part of that agreement.
On September 4, as a storm battered the roof at the Ciudad Barrios prison, around 20 of these men drew a close-knit circle around us. They were ready to hear our journalistic explanation for the coverage. Our articles did not firmly state that any money was involved in the truce, but cited sources who implied it. They questioned us on our working methods until Borromeo Henríquez, known as Diablo, looked up from where he sat on the floor and asked the others: “Are you satisfied? Do you have any more questions? I feel satisfied.” There was an affirmative silence, and only afterwards did the leader allow us to turn on our Dictaphones.
The following dialogue is the result of two long interviews —almost four hours of conversation in total— which took place at the prison on September 4 and 27, 2012. Here they have been merged, to allow for coherent reading of the ideas expressed by the MS-13 representatives, and have subsequently been split into four thematic areas. All of the accompanying photographs were taken at the second meeting in Ciudad Barrios. Not all participants were the same between the two meetings, although most of those who spoke at some point during the interviews participated in both.
The Ranfla is a heterogeneous group of around 20 people in which gang members known for their criminal trajectory and media presence, such as Dionisio Arístides Umanzor, known as Sirra, sit alongside others such as Alfredo Ramírez Beltrán, Locker; or Joaquín Jesús Cruz López, known as Chele, who have avoided making headlines for years. In the group, 30-year-olds sit alongside old-school homies aged around 50, such as José Luis Mendoza, known as El Pava, one of the early members of Seven Eleven, Los Angeles’ first MS-13 clique. The temperament of Saúl Turcios, known as El Trece, impatient and distrusting for most of the interview, contrasts the level-voiced and almost magisterial expression of Tiberio Ramírez Valladares, Snyder, a man whose full-face tattoos disguise a cordial manner.
Borromeo Henríquez, Diablo or Diablito de Hollywood, stands out from the rest for his extraordinary way with words, setting the rhythm for the conversation like the conductor of an orchestra. Often cited by the authorities as the “Central American leader” of the Mara Salvatrucha, he is not the group’s only one. However it is clear that the others have chosen him to speak for them. Where the name of the speaker is unspecified in this text, it can be read as Diablo speaking in the name of the Ranfla, and on behalf of the Mara themselves.
This conversation took place more than 200 days after the beginning of a truce that has reduced homicide rates in El Salvador to unprecedented lows; if the numbers had continued at an average of 14 people a day, as was the case prior to the agreement, by this date 1700 more people would have been killed.
Shortly before the second session of this interview in Ciudad Barrios, El Faro published an article detailing a new account of how the truce was managed, as described by its protagonists Raúl Mijango, the primary mediator of the talks; Monsignor Fabio Colindres; and the Minister for Justice and Public Security, David Munguía Payés. Denying their own prior description of events, they stated that the dialogue was not initiated by the Catholic Church and subsequently supported by the government, but a plan was instead developed by Minister Munguía Payés, who later invited Colindres in order to gain legitimacy. It was a plan that President Funes knew about from the beginning.
But Funes continues to insist that his government’s role has been limited to facilitating the work of the Church. He has not responded to complaints from the gangs, mediators, nor the Organization of American States —who participated in the process as a witness— for the Executive to play a more active role. Mijango has gone as far as to state that the truce will only last if the president decides to make the negotiations official. If that happens, the gangs have already presented a series of requests to be discussed.
In this interview the Mara Salvatrucha react to Funes’ silence toward their proposals and reveal details of conversations that both they and 18th Street had some years ago with the Antonio Saca administration. The leadership also discuss their long-term visions, revealing which scenarios they still have no answer for: they accept the possibility of disarmament, and of revealing the location of clandestine cemeteries, but appear visibly uncomfortable at the idea of disbanding. The Mara are not willing to even discuss the idea that they may one day disappear.
On the topic of the next stages of the process, the Mara assert that for as long as there continue to be gang members without legal employment, they will not dismantle their extortion network. They also state that they have recently held meetings with their street leaders to devise something new: a census of their members to gauge the labor potential of each member and clique. As they wait for the government and business to extend a firmer hand, they try to show patience and realism; they say they are aware that the most complex future task will be to gain acceptance from their victims.
In July [2012] both gangs delivered a document to OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza titled “Terms of the Agreement”, which included requests such as the suspension of police operations, repealing the Gang Proscription Law, eliminating the use of plea bargains, and removing the military from the streets. The requests were accompanied by demands such as the elimination of torture and death squads, which amount to compliance with the law. Have you received a response from the Executive?
No, not at the moment. In return they gave us an equally extensive list, which included some sensitive subjects. The media got people excited, and with our request for an end to police operations they were like “Shit! How are the police, the government, and the President going to do that?” That and the point about removing the military from the streets are the most delicate. The mega-operations they’ve been doing since the Francisco Flores administration haven’t achieved shit; all they’ve done is fill up the prisons and put more innocent people in jail. Maybe they were aiming for war, to deprive fish of water, because a lot of those mega-operations targeted our families, maybe three, four, five members… and 70 civilians. People who might occasionally talk to me, or we play soccer together, or maybe we drink together sometimes, or they’re my relative. There are some people who may really have been involved in illegal activities. But we’re requesting that because just like people got scared when they saw the list we’d presented, we were also scared by the list given to us, which included lots of difficult things. We saw it and said: “Well, if they’re saying that then they should be ready to discuss these other points, too.”
Who presented their list first, the government or you?
We did it at the same time.
Crook: We’re making these requests because we’ve taken so much abuse on the streets and in the prisons, from both soldiers and prison guards. We could do an extensive list of requests but what we’ve done is ask for our rights. Bringing the military off the streets would stop them roaming our neighborhoods carrying out phony searches, groping our women, underage youth, our daughters… in other words, abusing their legal powers. At the moment we don’t have rights, just because we’re in gangs. We have family members and friends who have died at the hands of the Army, whether that’s by being shot or beaten. It’s nothing new. And the torture… in this country we’re experiencing things that happened during the war here, all over again. That’s why we put it on the list.
(Élmer Canales Rivera, alias Crook, is short and stocky, with a shaved head and squinted gaze over his bushy moustache. He is one of thirty gang leaders transferred from Zacatecoluca at the beginning of March 2012 to begin the truce. So far, he has not tried to speak, nor had reason to. He has interrupted Diablo, as others do, because in this circle his voice carries weight. Over the duration of the interview it becomes clear that the leaders have a collective voice, emerging as a sum of opinions and sensibilities when the most sensitive topics arise. At times the dynamic lacks horizontality. When someone wants to, they emphasize a point; if a gang member wants to explain something Diablo has said, they do. When it is apparent that they are not in agreement over something that has been said, Diablo even corrects himself.)
But it’s important to know exactly how the lists were exchanged, because our impression is that the gangs are the only ones sending messages, and that it’s been the successive statements made by the gangs that have established the rhythm for this process. From the outside it seems as if the gang has suggested formal negotiations, and given the list of conditions, with no prior dialogue. It’s important to know if it’s something that comes from you or if it’s part of a dialogue that was already happening.
It’s an established dialogue, but among us. Our experiences require us to talk to each other and see what we can give, and what we can receive. When we draw up a list of… maybe they’re not demands, but rather a list where we want to… That’s why it was important for Insulza to participate. In the past, we’ve talked to government officials, or aspiring presidents or their assistants, or with any of those sons of bitches who work closely with them, and they come and talk to us about the topics we’ve wanted to raise. After those experiences we thought it was unlikely that the government or a minister would have the balls or authority to sit down and listen to our list. For a long time we’ve had to fight for rights we have by law; we didn’t make them up. We decided we needed to find a person with some weight to guarantee that our requests be listened to. That’s how, through our network of contacts, we managed to get Insulza to listen to what we had to say. So with that in mind, our strategic decision was to call on him, a person with international influence who isn’t compromised in any way here in El Salvador.
You say that the list that the government presented contained a series of sensitive subjects. We understand that among these were things ranging from the complete disarmament of gangs to the location of clandestine cemeteries, to handing over homies who are facing charges. Who presented their demands first, you or the government?
We’ve been asking for these things for years, so I think they already had an idea of where we were coming from. Those things came up when the dialogue began. We delivered a proposal to Insulza, and he replies… not in an official way, like through a member of the government. No official has told us “this is from the government of El Salvador.” There’s communication through Monsignor Colindres and Raúl [Mijango] and they let us know this and that. And we could see it’s for real, and as we already had the things we’re fighting for in mind, we made the proposal to Insulza. When he told us he was willing to come hear what we have to say, then we prepared the list and were like “this is it, here it is”. We hoped that the government would take the time to read it, to listen to us and to talk.
How did you go about agreeing on this list with 18th Street?
Our problems are the same.
Crook: Since we were in Zacate… Monsignor and Raúl thought that the differences between our two groups’ proposals were minimal. We’ve always had our problems with them, and there’s blood in it, but we’re both dealt the same blows. They struggle on their side, and we struggle on ours, but we both have the boot on our neck, it’s the same. That’s how things work.
Was the list you presented to Insulza agreed on in advance?
Yes. We communicated about it via Raúl. There has to be a bridge between us, otherwise things probably wouldn’t move forward, because they’ve made their mistakes and so have we. But if we don’t agree on some things, none of this will move ahead. In the past we’ve done sit-ins, hunger strikes, marches, we’ve submitted documents to all kinds of places, them on their side and us on ours, and sometimes together. It’s work that’s been going on for years. The idea was “you guys work on these points, and we’ll work on yours”, and we met in the middle and drew up a proposal together.
When you request that the police act strictly on the basis of things that they catch people doing, and that they suspend operations, that limits them to a public security role, functioning purely as a deterrent. In practice what you’re asking for is for them to suspend police investigations. Operations are the result of investigations. If the police can only catch people in the act of committing crimes, it makes no sense to conduct investigations.
No. People who commit crimes should be punished. What we’re asking for is that they stop indiscriminate operations. Let’s say Saúl, Tiberio, and I commit a crime; we live in the same neighborhood as our friends, relatives, and lots of other people we know. The police arrive, kick down our door and the doors of the other two, and there are 70 people with us who have nothing to do with the crime but who are part of our lives — they could be our relatives, and just because of that it’s an “illicit gathering”. Some investigations and definitions are such bullshit… This guy [points to Trece] has come through some cases where they accuse a fucking 60-year-old woman of being the material author of a crime. Dionisio had a really fucked up case! His mom was ill, she could barely walk and barely visited him, and they tried to implicate her in something… How could you possibly think that an old lady is going to get mixed up in our crimes as a gang?
What they say is that those people have roles like moving weapons, or sometimes they receive extortion money, sometimes they hide you… That’s how the police explain detaining family members. If you commit a crime and I hide you in my house, that’s a crime too.
We’re not saying that doesn’t happen. In some cases it has. But let’s be honest: they get 45 or 50 people because someone who’s been detained, a former criminal or a criminal is trying to get some prison benefit, and they start telling tales. In the first statement it says that Dionisio’s mom moved weapons, but she can’t even walk. In the second statement they claim a lot of things; there’s something about everyone. And in the third hearing, at trial, when they have to see him face to face, and the more serious investigation has begun, the judge realizes that the guy is lying. I mean, yeah, Dionisio is partly to blame, and Tiberio and Borromeo are guilty of “illicit association” [joint enterprise] and of those crimes. But for the other 74 people “our deepest apologies that the criminal justice system is shit.” They fucked up two years of these people’s lives, exposed them in the national media, and then they say they’re forgiving you when you never did anything.
Isn’t it also true that asking for plea bargains to be eliminated means that gangs have more internal control, because it closes off one of people’s ways out of the gang? You could also see it as a way for you to maintain control of your ranks.
85 percent of plea-bargain cases have been false. Or maybe 90.
Crook: There are no fair trials in this country. The media, witnesses, and police agree on things between themselves. The witness doing the plea bargain identifies you from a photo lineup, but they don’t know you. It’s fucked up and the lawyer isn’t even there. What they do is show them the photo so that motherfucker says “that’s the guy.” If you look into this we could help you with details of loads of documented cases where our homeboys are accused of murder, but they were in prison at the time.
Diablo: One of the most fucked-up things that Judge Delfino Parrilla says is “young men, you put up a good defense, I’ve listened to the defense statements, but I’m sorry: my people and my society demand that I charge you.” Pure shit! Parrilla, the trial judge in Santa Tecla, said that!
Trece: If you’re of color, and the media are there, they’ll charge you even if the person snitching on you is lying.
So more than criticizing the plea bargain witness, what you’re asking for is that the process be improved.
We would like it to be eliminated, because of these cases I’m telling you about.
Trece: There are some people who talk when it’s them who did it. They did the whole thing, and they accuse you. A shitload of people do that.
Diablo: We’re asking that a special commission, whether that’s presidential or international, study the cases we’re going to present of plea bargains and false evidence, as well as the disappearance, murder, and torture of our homies. We have an archive of all the cases we’ve told you about, what happened. There are photos, documentary evidence… Listen: that son of a bitch Parrilla has a case where they detained 75 people from Quezaltepeque, and the plea bargain witness says that multiple of them are the material authors of murders. It’s not a question of the intellectual authors, but who the hitman was, the person who goes there and does the deed. We have documentation from the prison registry —which is a legitimate source— and the judge has all the resources at hand to check if the document I’m giving them is false… and they give that loser a load of documents showing that the homies who are accused had been in such and such a prison for some time, and he comes out saying that society wants him to charge them. And ruins their lives, gives them 75 years. That was like three and a half years ago. We have documentary evidence!
So you’re asking for a commission to be set up to review those cases. And you think you can provide evidence.
We have the files! It’s not our word against theirs, we have witnesses, videos, documents, our family who can talk about when they went to get someone from their home and they never came back, or they turned up dead…
You do realize that most of your demands have to do with getting rid of certain legal constructs, changing police conduct, taking the military off the streets. If the government allows for that, it would lead to the idea that it’s gangs who mold the criminal justice system in this country.
It’s fucked up, because if we’re talking about what the authorities are legally allowed to do, everything we’re denouncing is illegal. The fact they charge me… Fuck! It’s completely fucked up that I presented evidence that I’m in prison, with official documents, saying “I didn’t kill them”…
I agree, but the problem isn’t that there are judges, it’s that there are bad judges. It’s the same thing with plea bargains. But you’re asking for the elimination of the plea bargain structure.
There’ll come a time when we’ll be able to explain to you what it is that we want, and you’ll understand.
The first part of the negotiations had some basic points, which are: we’ll improve prison conditions if the gang will stop the murders. Now the gang has set out another series of points in the hope that the conversations will move into a second phase, and with it the possibility that they will respond with a “yes”. But what if they say “no”?
We’ll have to carry on knocking on doors. We didn’t make it to where we are now just to get a no and accept that we lost.
If formal negotiations aren’t established, will the Mara’s response be “we’re going to carry on killing people”?
No. We’re going to look for international means. We can apply proper international political pressure. We can involve more people to seek a solution. Things have to change.
Is the question of murders at play? Could the current resolve be broken?
It’s really hard. We’d have to be under insane pressure to say “you can’t do this shit”. We’ve been fighting for years, believing that it can change.
Is there a scenario in which the gang decides that it’s not worth it anymore to keep ordering their members on the streets to stand down from killing people?
No. First of all, we’re men, we’re gang members who have faith in our actions. Here in this rueda, and in the ruedas in other places, if there’s some crazy person who doesn’t have faith in what we’re doing, well, fuck them. We want people here who are willing to do everything necessary for the conditions on the streets and in prisons to improve for our people. And if that requires drastic measures… Fuck, it’s hard to go to people, to some guy who’s fucking crazy because his enemies have killed his brothers, how to do you tell him “calm down dude”? That’s fucked! And to do it takes even more balls. We decided to get into all this as a team because it has to change. And the only way it will is for us to take the steps; we’ve tried loads of things already and there’s never been a government willing to help us. Never! Despite the fact we’ve helped political campaigns from start to finish, including with our votes. There’s never been anyone who said they’d listen to us or even anyone who said “I’ll see what I can do”. I don’t need to give you a whole sermon to convince you of the sub-human conditions we live in. So the time has come for us to be protagonists, and take the necessary steps. Our mission is to sustain this for as long as possible, and for that we need agreements to happen, and for gestures to be made from the other sides too.
Diablo, in the meeting with Insulza you said you delivered the demands to the president on June 22. Are you saying that after three months there hasn’t been a formal response to any of your demands?
Trece: No-one has responded anything at all.
Diablo: There have been some legal improvements made. The report says “for improvements in the prison system”; hey papá [my dude], we’re not looking for TVs in cells while our people continue to live like shit. We’re not doing everything possible in our control to stop the violence just for some television. It’s really clear to us that this [points to a television in the room] is a legal right. If some asshole politician or public official thought that preventing me from watching my soccer team play would make me soften up, or relent, they’re wrong.
It’s very difficult to do what you guys have done, to stop the murders, and even more to do it overnight. It proves that you have a very high level of control of your structures.
And of exhaustion, too. Tired of the torture, of the indiscriminate raids…
When you gave the streets the orders, was the immediate response “okay, that’s fine”?
It’s a process, and for years we’ve been looking for a response, for someone to pay attention to what we’re doing. When we put our heads together we all started to see things differently.. We were in a war where they were killing us, and it’s eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. We started to consider the economic costs of the violence and decided that the only way forward was to pull off something big, but the risk is that it could blow up on us. If the Mara don’t agree with the decision they could put an end to both us and all this.
A lot of people thought that in the days following the move from Zacatecoluca there would be a purge inside the gang. That they’d kill you guys for it.
Well, we were confident in the knowledge that people were tired and wanted change, and that they trusted that the decisions that we were going to take, together with them, would be the right ones. And thankfully they were.
There was no opposition from the street?
In general there is a line in the gang. There might be one or two isolated cases but as it’s them who are experiencing the repression, torture, the talegueadas [beatings], the coheteados [pistol-whippings], there also comes a moment where they decide to see where this path takes them.
It’s one thing to convince a homie to bring word that they’re not going to do their beatings anymore. But let’s not be stupid: there are cliques with more economic capacity than others, who reap more benefits from the criminal life than others. There are cliques which are just young guys trying it out, but there are others who now move medium-size quantities of drugs or who are more involved in organized crime. You can’t put all the cliques in the same basket.
Trece: And why do you ask that, or think that, that some cliques have more or less, or that there are more people…?
You can see it, it’s evident.
Trece: Have you done your research?
There are cliques who make all their income from extortion of community businesses; there are others who are working at a different economic level. It goes on here, in Honduras, Guatemala… the cliques aren’t all the same.
Trece: But there is one line and one word.
Crook: In every clique this [points to his chest tattoos] is what’s in charge; the M and the S. If the neighborhood tells us to jump off a cliff, everyone there does it. We have one solid word.
Diablo: We’re a gang. It’s not that we came to impose ourselves here. Sometimes it seems like it was “these guys said it, so that’s what’s done”. No. There’s consultation, and we’re all there. We do consultations and research like you do. “How’s your area doing? What’s going on with you? This has been happening with me…”. There are opinions, we talk through ideas, and that’s how we get to a collective decision, because the decision of one individual alone wouldn’t be enough.
Are you ready for every clique to leave the drug business, and other crimes as well?
We’re ready to talk about any topic that might reach the negotiating table. We’re not closed off, we don’t have pre-decided conditions because we don’t want them to either. We’re open to discussing any topic that interests not just the government but the people in general.
But normally legal activities bring in less money than the illegal. How do you explain all this to the homie who replies: “But Borromeo, I used to get a thousand a month and if the employment opportunity you’re offering me goes well I might get 350. I don’t want to”?
It’s not Borromeo who’ll decide. The gang will decide. And if the gang goes down that route, he’ll have to obey and go down it, too. If not he’ll have to do what some people did: step aside and carry out his dubious activities outside of the gang.
Is extortion an individual business for each gang member of a clique, or are there collective decisions made about who is charged and how much, and who isn’t?
We can’t answer that.
Okay, let’s go back then: There are gang members that manage a lot of money, and others who manage very little. How are you going to handle internal inequalities?
Look… that’s why we’ve taken multiple things into account. We’re thinking about a master plan which can give our children what they need. Not all of us are tradespeople, some of us might want to study or do something else. And we have to look for ways they can do that. When the FMLN and the military came to an agreement [in 1992], not everyone was a peasant farmer. That all has to be thoroughly studied, which is what we’re doing at the moment. Last week we had our first serious study meeting, with our street comrades. Not everyone is going to like the idea, they might think “shit, I need 500 dollars a month and these assholes are going to give me 300”. We’ve already had the first meeting to study all that.
So, is the Mara Salvatrucha doing a kind of census of labor skills, age, family? When you say a “deep study” are you referring to that kind of analysis?
That’s it, yes. And other things as well, because obviously in a rural area, for example, you’re not going to put up a call center. We’re doing deep research to ask each area: “So, what the hell can we come up with here, what do you like to do? And what do you think this clique can do? And you guys..” That’s the kind of consultation we’re doing, so that we have a solid base and we can present it when the resources are there.
Where was that meeting and how was it organized?
I can’t tell you those things. But believe me when I say it happened. We would have done it before but we couldn’t see a light at the end of the tunnel.
But is it correct to say that there was resistance to that process in the Lourdes clique, for example, the San Cocos, the Fulton…? I don’t know if it’s from the whole clique or if certain people don’t like the line you’re taking and end up opposing it.
If a police source told you that, it’s not true. Or was it one of us?
Someone who knows you.
There are people who belonged to our organization but who aren’t part of it anymore, but they still use the letters and the name of the clique they belonged to, and they continue committing crimes. Sometimes people from those neighborhoods identify those people, like “so and so from that clique, he’s up to his bullshit again…”, but it’s shit that the gang has nothing to do with. They’re members or ex-members, who we call los pesetas because they fucked it all up and betrayed us. There’s been times where people have said that a Mara member did something or other, and then we do our research. If something happens in my area this guy [pointing to Trece] comes to me and says “hey, you’re from there, what happened?”. Then my mission is to investigate and take responsibility for what happened. But there have been fuck-ups by some members who are separate from us, and not because they’re not following the line but because they they were high or wasted and didn’t give a shit about anything, or because they’ve shot someone up impulsively. But it wasn’t on direct orders from the gang.
Have you ever had to use force to bring discipline to the gang?
Look, within our organization there is a disciplining system that we follow.
Do the Mara reserve the opportunity to enforce the decisions of the Ranfla through violence, such as with guns? The people who killed Alison Renderos, the athlete, or the people who have pulled the trigger on other occasions; did they die?
(Silence.) That case involved members of a rival gang, we don’t know if..
If such a thing happened in the Mara Salvatrucha, is the punishment for breaking the truce death?
Look… we have our disciplinary system, that’s what we have to follow. We’ve come here to change things, not to muddy the waters even further. Take the Las Margaritas case, which is one of the well-known ones: they implicated me directly. The media said that it came from a police source, and I know who that source is. Those people are so scared of the information we have. They know that there have been different meetings and various occasions where they have suggested different things of a delicate nature to us, and we’ve said no and no and no and no.
What’s a “delicate thing”?
I can’t tell you that.
Are you talking about police groups, organized crime..?
Trece: Various kinds of death squads…
Diablo: We’re talking about various people who we’ve had dealings with.
To criminal ends?
Or to make money from them: popularity, success… those things that are to do with politics. And we were like “no, you guys fucked it up, you guys sort it out”. When they sent us to Zacatecoluca in 2005 things were really fucked up on the street.
(The Mara Salvatrucha claim that the Antonio Saca administration sent many of their members to the Zacatecoluca maximum security prison in 2005 as an act of vengeance for the failure of negotiations with the Executive. Those negotiations were similar to the current ones, but much more direct and secretive. They say that the transfer isolated them from their structures and created chaos on the streets. The Mara say that without the leadership’s guidance the group broke with their own rules and became more lethal.)
Going back to the previous point, you say you were accused of the murder of those two gang members in Las Magaritas. What happened there, and what does it have to do with what you’re telling us?
They were two homies.
Can you explain?
That case was really fucked up, because we found ourselves implicated in something where we had lost two comrades. The media came and the official version was “those guys didn’t support the truce, so they killed them”. Afterward another source said that Diablito ordered them to be killed because of problems they had had with his relatives. Look, none of us have the power nor authority to order someone to be killed, because we have serious responsibilities. It’s not my word, or the word of Trece, or Snyder, or Crook, or anyone else here; there is one word, and the whole gang has a say in it. And why am I highlighting this? Because…
This group doesn’t have the authority to kill anyone?
We’re not here to decide on anyone’s life. We’re here to change things, to stop the old habit of killing someone who doesn’t do this or that. We want everyone to have a clean conscience, and to understand that things have to move on because the gang is deciding to change. It’s not something we’re going to impose, we have to consult with a lot of people.
Traditionally gangs have used violence as a way to discipline and purge their own members.
That can’t be denied.
Have you given up that method now? So this group doesn’t have the authority to punish anyone with death?
Trece: That’s never happened.
Diablo: I’m not going to answer that question. You can’t say anything about what we can or can’t do internally. We can’t talk about our disciplinary practices. The investigation into the Las Margaritas case will continue, both as our own internal investigation and the police investigation, and findings will be made. But we want to make it clear: there are cases that are being used to tarnish us. For now it’s me, but there are other cases our enemies use to try and screw us over. I’ll say it loud and clear: there are certain officials, or high-ranking members of the police and intelligence services, who are against these negotiations and they’re going to try and derail those of us here with actions like that. It’s absurd to say that I would order two of my comrades dead —people who grew up with me in the gang, who I’ve known for years, since we were children— because I had a family problem.
So Droopy and the Western Mafia didn’t die on the gang’s orders?
They didn’t die on the gang’s orders. The investigation will come — ours and the police’s.
In any case, out on the streets people are asking if the gang are building a peace process with blood. Do you understand that at some point you’re going to have to make it clear to society, you’ll have to answer that question?
Yes. And that’s why we’re taking care not to fall for any tricks and give extra ammo to the people who say “what do they mean, they’re not going to kill anyone, if they’re killing each other?” If this process is real we have to make it real.
One of the people who said that the Las Margaritas murders were part of an internal purge was David Munguía Payés, your closest interlocutor in the state.
The system, its politicians, and its intelligence officials have always claimed they could say what the gang was. And they’ve had wrong information. They’ve accused us of things we don’t even know about, dude.
Do you understand yourselves to be negotiating with the government?
For the moment we don’t really have it clear. Our cards are on the table… we’ll have to wait for a response.
But haven’t you been negotiating with the government over these six months?
For me a negotiation is where you, or someone in your name, sits down with the other side and listens to what they want. Monsignor is important because he understands, on a human level, what we’re living through here inside, and what we experience on the streets. We’ve shown him evidence and he has understood. One of our strategies was to make use of the influence Monsignor could have in the state hierarchies. Remember who Monsignor is, who he has been for years and who he associates with. People listen to him. That’s why we thought “they won’t listen to us, but they will listen to you”. We’re aware that a government won’t publicly accept that “we’re going to sit down with the gangs and negotiate”, because whoever says that can say goodbye to their political career.
But when Raúl Mijango and Fabio Colindres come and open the door for you, you know they do it through direct contact with, and permission from, the government minister.
As we understand it, they listen and pass it on.
Which is exactly what you said you hope for from a negotiator. The gangs aren’t expecting that Mauricio Funes will sit down in a chair and say “hello, Diablo”. You were telling us: “I understand that negotiation is a process in which two sides discuss things through mediators”.
The beginning of it.
So this is what happened: you were all in Zacatraz, then you came out Zacatraz; the military were here before but aren’t anymore; before you used to go out with your families but not anymore; your children couldn’t come to visit you before, but now they can; before, the homicide rate was through the roof, but not anymore. In El Faro that’s what we would call a negotiation. Because all that has been possible through two people who talk to you and talk to the government.
Something like that.
It’s not the exact word that matters, but we need to have the same understanding.
Yeah, it’s been something like that. You’re correct. But for us Monsignor and Raúl still don’t have the role of negotiating between the government and us.
You say that because the president hasn’t responded?
It hasn’t been official, which is why we don’t think that Raúl nor Monsignor will change everything that needs changing. They’re important, because they’ve already taken big steps toward what we want, but there still isn’t someone there who is officially designated, and who has the authority to say “yes, this is possible, no this is not possible, that we can negotiate…”.
The fact that the president hasn’t responded yet to your proposals — does that create problems for you with the people in the street? Does that make it more complicated for you to keep the process stable in the streets?
No, not yet. Remember, there’s a lot of damage that’s been done. So the president, his assistants, his security cabinet, should go step by step. If they’re going to accept, they have to bring a counterproposal. Do you understand what putting that on the table involves? Let’s say we take out one thing and add another. “Do you agree?” “No”. “Well, how about…”. I think they’re studying it. It’s becoming a political problem, there’s going to be presidential elections soon; the President needs to be very careful. But we have faith that at least they’ll listen to us. And then after, the international bombardment will come from us: finding people and entities who can get involved, because this is really worth it, for me, for my family, for everyone. We’re patient.
If the time comes, would it be an outlandish proposal for the gang, for example, to show where the disappeared are?
It’s not a crazy idea. It’s the institutions’ obligation to try and find out the truth and shed light on every demand that the Salvadoran people make. Victims’ relatives, people who’ve lost their sons and children… it’s not an outrageous demand. It’s real, it’s happened. That’s our history. A few days ago it was the International Day of the Disappeared and our country asked for the acknowledgement of culpability for what happened during the war, and to know where those people are.
Are the Mara willing to do it?
We’re willing to do many things.
The Mara are willing to show people where the disappeared are?
We’re willing to discuss any idea that’s on the table.
Trece: But if we don’t know where they are, what then?
Are the Mara willing to disarm?
We’re willing to put any idea on the table and discuss it.
Are the Mara willing to hand over homies who are wanted for crimes?
We’re willing to talk about any topic that comes up.
Are the Mara willing to disband?
We’re willing to discuss any topic that comes up.
That’s interesting. A lot of people have that expectation as an outcome of negotiations. They say, well, the Mara Salvatrucha and their rival gang are criminal organizations. Right?
(Diablo sits down.)
And there are people who want to know if at the end of this process the Mara Salvatrucha will stop existing.
Trece: You tell me, if you have a family… would you break up your family? This is my family, the people you see here [points at the other gang members present].
Are you going to stop initiating new homies? Are you going to stop setting up structures, and links with palabreros?
Diablo: We see ourselves as a problem because of the crimes that happen, that harm us, our families, and the country. That’s why your questions get to us: as Trece said, this is our family. You have to understand, our actions made us criminals and have marginalized us in this society, but these guys will never stop being my comrades.
That’s why we ask you, because...
Trece: And that’s why I already gave you an answer, a very clear answer. And I asked you a question.
And I’m replying: I would not break up my family.
Trece: Well that’s where we’ve gotten to on that.
We understand that you’re not going to stop being friends…
We’re comrades.
…But a structure has its own dynamics, hierarchies, forms of organization. A group of friends doesn’t have rituals to become a member or to leave, they don’t have laws, no-one tells anyone what to do… It’s not about if you’re going to stop talking to Trece or Diablo, but if you’re going to take apart the structural framework which makes you an organization. If this all works out, how do you imagine yourselves in the future?
Snyder: Everything depends on what they give us: if they allow us, our people, our families on the streets to have opportunities, work, ways to feed our children… it shouldn’t just be the prison system to repress us, there should be correspondent opportunities so that in freedom you can apply yourself and you have a place, you know? Like, a member of the Mara Salvatrucha who also works, who exists, but who is also useful to society.
Diablo: It’s as if they’ve taken out the part of the Constitution that says that every citizen always has the right to gather with others as long as it’s for peaceful reasons. We want to deal with the violence and illegal activities, but let’s have the rights that are in the Constitution, the right to be comrades, to meet up, to go out and hang out wherever we want, without violence.
Chele: The thing is that we’re a gang, and we’re always going to be. Maybe the gang’s actions are beyond the limits of what’s tolerable. We have rules; there are things that got out of control, which is how we got to where we were, and that’s why society is against us, because of our own actions. We want to continue as a gang, but also to be useful to the Salvadoran people in general.
Snyder: And for our families.
Nobody doubts that the Mara Salvatrucha and the other gang have lowered the number of murders. That’s an undeniable fact. But nor can we deny that the gang keeps communities it has taken over in a state of terror. Citizens, who are as poor as you are, still pay their rent, still fear for their children when they go to school, they’re still scared of you…
(Diablo nods.)
…The machine has stopped killing, but it still has the same ability to do it. How can this terror be broken?
That’s what we’re fucking trying to do.
Snyder: Let me tell you something. In order for a student to aspire to reach the next grade, they need school books, pencils, training, education. Do you see what I’m saying? A way to aspire toward change. But if there isn’t that, they don’t pass the grade.
Diablo: So far we’ve been alone in this huge thing we’ve gotten into. We’ve learned bad habits and need to go back to our principles. And that’s hard. We’ve been doing it for six months, my man. And for us these six months have been a great success, but a great success that needs to keep moving forward, and again, that’s why we’re saying that there needs to be fuel from the outside, not just from us. We’re doing everything humanly possible for this to move forward. That’s why we had the Insulza visit, that’s why we’re trying to get organizations to work with us, that’s why we’re challenging the business people. How can life in the streets change if there are no opportunities?
Saúl [Trece] says: “we’re not going to break apart our family; we want to stop committing crimes.” However, if the Mara Salvatrucha have managed to bring about these negotiations it’s because they’re powerful and frightening. How can we know, as a society, that this structure with all that strength won’t go back to crime? How do we know that this all won’t just become a permanent negotiation? For now you’re asking for employment… but then you might ask for —and I’m making this up but— hospitals for your people. You’re always going to have more of a voice than other groups. Do you not consider it legitimate for the state to demand that you break down that muscle?
Let me tell you something, my friend. [Diablo turns towards Joaquín, alias Chele, who is to his left.] This guy’s a big brain, right? [He laughs]. I was all good vibes but this guy whispers some great ideas in my ear. [They all laugh and joke together].
Chele: Your questions… you need to understand something: gangs are groups that each of its members identifies with, and they feel good about being there. Do you see what I’m saying? When we said that we were the problem, and that we can be the solution, what we’re saying is that we’re not going to continue to harm people, you feel me? Let’s make this clear: the gangs have a line, and the Mara Salvatrucha will always keep their line, and our whole idea is that we’re not willing to cause people bother and suffering anymore. But we’ve certainly already answered this question you’ve been repeatedly asking us, and we’ll answer you again: the Mara Salvatrucha will always be the Mara Salvatrucha.
With your cliques, your cell structures… those aren’t going to change?
(Silence.)
Okay, let’s go back to the previous point. You mentioned “turning the bad habits around”, and that would involve breaking up the mutation of the Mara in El Salvador, stopping the extreme violence and going back to the more calculated violence of the Mara in, for example, Los Angeles.
Trece: Everything starts somewhere. It’s not that we sought out violence, we were forced to do it. If they kill one of your brothers, they blow you up, too… And that fuels the cycle, it’s how things have come to what they’ve come to. They brought us to this point through repression.
The thing is that for this all to turn around…
Trece: For that to happen, things that happened before can’t happen again, from our part and from the state.
And you guys have to maintain your leadership in the gang. Whatever weakens your leadership also weakens the truce.
What would weaken it is if it fell on deaf ears, and if the repressive policies, the criminal justice system designed to screw you over, the torture, the shootings, the police murders, and all that continues.
Again: this process began with a prison transfer which made it easier for leaders from both neighborhoods to exercise direct command, because if not it would have been more complicated. You guys had to have effective, real, and fast control to carry out the agreement. So that’s how it works.
Yes.
And what comes after depends on you maintaining that leadership and control. In practice what’s happened is a coordinated decision between the gang and the state in order to make sure they are aligned, and that there is a shared mentality between people who currently have control of the Mara and the state, and that the Mara is less disperse and less in the hands of young people or people who think differently. So people who have had a different perspective over recent years are under the Mara’s control again. That’s how that works.
That movement was necessary in order for this to work, of course. They had to open the space for it to become real. And for this to continue and be long-lasting there has to be a repeat dose. Why is there still no-one who has said “look, guys, what do you want to work in? I’ve got millions to throw at whatever and I can do this if the president gives it the green light”. Why hasn’t that happened? Easy: one guy’s right-wing and another guy left-wing, and so one guy says I’m not going to do the same thing as him with my resources and my help, even if it’s a success, because that would be left-wing success.
Haven’t you considered that maybe the Mara don’t exactly go around doing good things, so it’s not easy to hear someone say that the mareros should have work? The gang have sent signals, but they need to make amends with the Salvadoran people. Do you understand that that’s another one of the obstacles?
The will is there, but someone has to say “I’m in”, and that’s not easy. There are victims, there is harm, pain, and that’s the hardest thing to cure… It’s also hard to make someone whose life we’ve fucked up see that they have to help us, just because now we’ve decided that we want help.
Los Angeles didn’t take to it kindly.
We’re talking about this country. We’re accountable for our actions here.
Are the experiences of the United States, Guatemala, and Honduras irrelevant to this process?
It’s not irrelevant, but we need steps to benefit our people, and us.
Independently of what the homies up there think.
Chele: Their time will come, when they’ll understand that what we’re doing isn’t a betrayal. As a gang we’re never going to betray the terms of the gang, which are the same whether it’s in L.A., Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, or wherever the Mara Salvatrucha are. There will come a time when our homeboys in other countries will understand that we’re doing something that won’t affect the gang in the long-term, we’re just trying to move forward, to be productive, to help our people and the Salvadoran people in general. While we don’t break with anything we can go really far, as my colleague said. It depends on the opportunities we’re given.
Up till now it’s been easier for society to put their trust in individuals than in the Mara as a group. Over recent years gang members who wanted to leave the violence behind had to distance themselves from the gang, because the Mara wouldn’t allow almost anyone to leave the violence.
That’s not true.
Isn’t it?
There are lots of people who left because they betrayed us, and those are the people who say bad things about the gang. We’re going to invite you to an event that we have coming up soon with lots of our comrades, and you guys will admire it and be like “damn, those guys were from the Mara”. To give you an example, you’ll be like “this guy can do this, or that, that guy studies at university, or this guy works in my office…” and then they tell you they were in the Mara. They’ll show you that if anyone from this group or from outside of it wants to have a productive, tranquil life, and they say that, and they don’t owe us anything nor betray us —as Joaquín just said— there’s the door, dude, and we’re always here to help you out with whatever you need.
Has it been like that in recent years?
It’s always been like that.
Trece: Always.
Diablo: But there have always been people who’ve taken the exit route through betrayal. And all traitors pay with their life. So they’re uneasy, they say things… and certain things they’ve done make it seem that there’s no solution. But we’re reflecting on our activities, preparing ourselves and calling other Mara members to say “should we get into this?”. Because we think it will bring opportunities.
Your reply is surprising. So nowadays if a homie doesn’t take any sides, doesn’t owe anything to the neighborhood… if they want to pack their bags they can?
They should go. We’ll say thank you for everything comrade, and we’ll still be here.
It’s that easy?
It’s that simple and it’s been like that forever.
Trece: That’s been our root.
Chele: Whoever wants to do something else with their life, be with their children, or become a Christian… we have loads of homies here who are Christian.
You don’t call them pesetas.
No, man, they’re our comrades!
So nowadays if a member of Mara Salvatrucha decides to leave the gang, they’re allowed to leave freely. I mean, if the headline here was “Mara Salvatrucha: any member who wants to leave can do it”, would that be correct?
Diablo: It’s always been like that…
Another person: That’s our history…
Another person: Whoever has wanted to cool off, they should, right?
Chino (having looked uncomfortable with the previous questions, and shaking his head at his colleagues’ answers): That headline.. I don’t know why we’re going so deep into this. You know what? That’s enough about the Mara Salvatrucha, okay? I don’t know why you want to get so deep into the gang. You know what? We’ve answered a lot of questions and you still want to go further. It’s a personal thing for us.
Chino, let me explain what the…
Chino: We’re trying to show you guys some of the good things we’re doing, so that everything in these negotiations goes well. But you guys come and want to get into deeper things. How far do you want to pry? We’re doing all this so that things go well out there, do you understand? What we’re asking for is what the government owes us. All prisoners have rights, and they’ve taken those away from us just because they feel like it. You want to make this all about gangs. And you know what? With all due respect, I’ve had it up to here. You have your work, and I want to have my gang. You ask us a lot of compromising questions, really compromising. And you won’t stop until you come out with what you want. So, with all respect, show us respect and we’ll respect you, too.
(Chino had remained in silence during most of the interview, however it’s clear that now he will talk and will not allow us any interruptions. He is nearing 50 years old, and boasts Mara ancestry, claiming to have witnessed the group’s birth on the streets of Los Angeles. He is angry. His voice booms through the room. Other gang members who were waiting in the corridor hear the altercation and approach, curious about what has made their homeboy so angry. Chino, sitting in a corner, has thrown his body forward. He looks into our eyes and gesticulates harshly.)
Look, it wasn’t our intention to offend anyone. When we were talking to Borromeo…
Chino: How old are you?
33.
Chino: You were three years old when I first joined gangs! And you think I’m going to like it if you come and tell me we should stop existing, asking if we’re going to do that? You know what? I don’t think you have the right to…
Let me explain why we ask these sorts of questions: our job is to represent every question people out there might have.
Gang member one: The questions aren’t an issue, but this guy keeps insisting. How are we going to… “can anyone leave the gang”? Dude, I don’t think… that’s for us to decide, it’s our thing.
(People continue to enter the room. They surround us. Borromeo acknowledges his colleagues, and tries to recover the tone of the conversation. But Chino’s intervention has gotten the homeboys worked up, and now they try to speak.)
Blacky: I understood your question: it’s if we’re going to wake up tomorrow and want more privileges, or if we’re going to start demanding more privileges from the government. Right? They start negotiating with the state, and then they fall into a vicious cycle where they extort the state. But you know what? None of our requests are outside of the law.
Gang member 2: Stop! You guys are rich kids, so let me put it like this: the children of the elite base things purely on what they’ve studied and learned. And so you ask these probing questions. Look, we come from campesino stock, do you get me? We do fucked up things in order to survive, so that… look, [he passes his hand over his throat], so they don’t kill us. So that our enemies don’t kill us, and the system doesn’t either. Do you see what I’m saying? We’ve had to watch our backs for a very long time.
Chino: You have to understand that some things are over the line with us. But you rummage and rummage and rummage, with your questions. You come and you want to write some crazy report, and I respect that, but we have our limits, too, and all we’re asking is that you understand that. The same question again and again and again and again, when we’re already giving you an answer. Do you want to help with this process? It’s not that you have to be on our side, but well, you need to know where you should be.
(About 15 more people have entered the room by this point, and the discussion continues with the same tone for several minutes before the photojournalist pauses it in order to ask the gang members’ permission to go around the prison with his camera. The group bursts into laughter: “naaaah, man, we’re not going to touch you”, “hey, this guy’s scared”. Pau Coll’s request was like a bucket of cold water over a room catching fire. The atmosphere, which had been tense, turned sarcastic. Someone jokes about swapping one of their homeboys, who looks just like Pau, for the photographer nd slipping past the guards. They all laugh. Chino folds his arms again and leans back against the wall. After various jokes the interview starts up again.)
Have the Mara Salvatrucha discussed the possibility of some kind of amnesty for pesetas [traitors]?
Well now you’ve given me another good idea… we haven’t discussed it. (Diablo says to Chele, who has been taking notes for most of the conversation: “put that down, we can negotiate on that, too.”) Very good question…
And the answer is…?
There is no answer. We’re going to analyze it, because they’re complex and delicate ideas that can’t be talked through right now. It’s our word we’d be putting out, and the word of the Mara Salvatrucha should be respected.
Another question along those lines: Will the brother, mother, or son of an enemy gang member, of a person who lives in the community of a rival gang, be able to walk around Las Margaritas, for example, without considering themselves in danger?
A chorus of voices: They already do. / They do go around. / It’s not a problem. / It’s the person, not the family.
Sirra: Hold on, the families of both groups don’t have anything to do with it, nothing at all.
And the homeboys?
Sirra: That’s another story, dude, but relatives have nothing to do with it and they’ve always been able to go wherever they want.
And do you think there’ll come a time when a member of the enemy gang will be able to walk through Mara Salvatrucha territory?
Sirra: Look, we can’t answer that, about if a gang member could go through the rival’s territory… We can’t answer, but we can make it clear to you that there’s never been any restrictions on relatives going wherever they want.
You don’t make the family of a gang member pay for what they owe you?
Look, you’re getting into deeper topics we haven’t talked about yet, and you want to get an exclusive on things that might come up further down the line. We can’t give you an answer because there has to be a proper debate, a consensus, and an agreement, because further down the line that’s useful to us as well. So… you’ve got me into something and, well, those are things which can be negotiated as well, right? And we’ll put “this one was El Faro’s idea…” [they all laugh].
Ha, ha. Okay. Look, Adam Blackwell, the Secretary of Security of the OAS says that the possibility of more weapons handovers is being discussed at the moment. Is that correct?
You’ll find out about things when they go public.
That sounds like a yes.
You’ll find out about things when they go public.
*Translated by Ali Sargent
